Solar PV Sales

[babba]

I'm sure they were just as passionate and knowledgeable when selling windows, driveways, blinds etc.

I hope you would be as passionate when doing a rewire.

 

[solarsavings]

no, but I am when laying...................................

 

[Somecamel]

Might get a bit of flack for this but want to reiterate the point that there are some good sales people who don't go out to rip people off but have a real passion for this.

Me for instance.

I'm not an electrician, I like business, I like selling to people and I believe in what I'm selling.

I run my own small solar company, I employ 2 Engineers, I pay my taxes etc and I earn a good living.

We became a limited company in 2009 having traded as a sole trader for a few years previous.

The economy needs salespeople as much as industry needs people to sell stuff for them.

Not everyone can sell, I certainly couldn't wire up a PV system.

The people that are ripping people off I hope are few and far between, I certainly haven't come across many 'really' bad ones and the green media industry are trying to spread the word to avoid them.

How many of you guys are ready to move your 'green' business forward?

Mass PV has gone for the time being- far too many other companies doing it now.

Got to diversify

 

[solarsavings]

I would most tradesmen have been diversifying since finishing their apprenticeships. I have for the last 34 years

 

[FB.]

You have to wear a shiny suit, have bryl cream in your hair and tell porkies like the ones I found at my customer's this afteroon.

43p tariff for the 25 years - in black and white.
19% ROI from a 14k system

The guy has cashed in an Isa to take advantage of this fab offer - think I might too ...

The 19% ROI will be due to generous assumptions in the rate of inflation and energy price increases. Easy to whack in an assumption of 15% p.a. energy price increases (and get away with it because of the recent steep rises in the cost of our bills). The higher the rate of inflation, the faster the inflation-linked FiT will rise, and, the faster the inflation the more expensive electricity prices would become and therefore the more in-house savings which could be made by not having to import as much from the grid.

My rough 'n' ready calculation for a 4kWp/£12000 system suggests:
@43p FiT = 13.5% annual rate of return, but, of course, none of the original capital will ever be returned (it will be a near-worthless/depreciated asset), unlike most ISA's/bank accounts.
@21p FiT = 7.8% annual rate of return, but capital is not returned.

So with the "write-off" of the original outlay, the 43p FiT drops to 5% p.a. annual *real* return (i.e. return stripping out the effect of inflation).
The 21p FiT drops to 3% p.a. annual *real* return.

Then add on-top whatever you think the inflation rate will be (e.g. 4% inflation/RPI would make 9% ROI for 43p FiT and 7% ROI for 21p FiT).

The returns might lose another 1% p.a. if the inverter has a meltdown a couple of years after its warranty has expired; certainly it is very possible that the system will need a replacement inverter in the 25-year lifespan and potentially might need two new inverters over the government's 35-year assumed lifespan.

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[babba]

The 19% ROI will be due to generous assumptions in the rate of inflation and energy price increases. Easy to whack in an assumption of 15% p.a. energy price increases (and get away with it because of the recent steep rises in the cost of our bills). The higher the rate of inflation, the faster the inflation-linked FiT will rise, and, the faster the inflation the more expensive electricity prices would become and therefore the more in-house savings which could be made by not having to import as much from the grid.

My rough 'n' ready calculation for a 4kWp/£12000 system suggests:
@43p FiT = 13.5% annual rate of return, but, of course, none of the original capital will ever be returned (it will be a near-worthless/depreciated asset), unlike most ISA's/bank accounts.
@21p FiT = 7.8% annual rate of return, but capital is not returned.

So with the "write-off" of the original outlay, the 43p FiT drops to 5% p.a. annual *real* return (i.e. return stripping out the effect of inflation).
The 21p FiT drops to 3% p.a. annual *real* return.

Then add on-top whatever you think the inflation rate will be (e.g. 4% inflation/RPI would make 9% ROI for 43p FiT and 7% ROI for 21p FiT).

The returns might lose another 1% p.a. if the inverter has a meltdown a couple of years after its warranty has expired; certainly it is very possible that the system will need a replacement inverter in the 25-year lifespan and potentially might need two new inverters over the government's 35-year assumed lifespan.

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So it was you...call the police and give yourself up..

 

[finchy]

I fancy going in to double glazing, they seem to compliment each other !

 

[Eco Deal]

Might get a bit of flack for this but want to reiterate the point that there are some good sales people who don't go out to rip people off but have a real passion for this.

Me for instance.

I'm not an electrician, I like business, I like selling to people and I believe in what I'm selling.

I run my own small solar company, I employ 2 Engineers, I pay my taxes etc and I earn a good living.

We became a limited company in 2009 having traded as a sole trader for a few years previous.

The economy needs salespeople as much as industry needs people to sell stuff for them.

Not everyone can sell, I certainly couldn't wire up a PV system.

The people that are ripping people off I hope are few and far between, I certainly haven't come across many 'really' bad ones and the green media industry are trying to spread the word to avoid them.

How many of you guys are ready to move your 'green' business forward?

Mass PV has gone for the time being- far too many other companies doing it now.

Got to diversify

am I mis reading this you own a solar pv company but dont know how to install/wire a system?

fogive me if I am wrong .

 

[Somecamel]

You are correct. Well I couldn't do the AC connection.

I would hazard a guess I was selling pv before a lot of you guys started doing it.

I'm not alone in this, it's not only electricians that are allowed to sell PV you know

 

[FB.]

So it was you...call the police and give yourself up..

I'm too honest, I'm afraid.
I tell people what they need to know, not what they want to hear.

My honest estimate of the *real* returns, over the 25-year FiT period, from a 4kW PV, would be 4.5% from the 43p FiT and 2.5% from the 21p FiT.
Stockmarkets have historically managed about 5% *real* over long periods of time, while bonds managed about 1% *real* and cash manages 0% real (i.e. cash, even with interest added, only just about holds its ability to buy what it did the day it was squirrelled away).

Then make a best guess as to what inflation will be and add that on top of the *real* return - but remember that gains made from inflation will be offset by the loss of buying power of the money.
Historically, inflation in the UK has averaged about 5% p.a. in the last 25-30 years, so it would be reasonable to add that to the rates of return mentioned above.

43p FiT = 4.5% *real*, 9.5% nominal, p.a.
21p FiT = 2.5% *real*, 7.5% nominal, p.a.

 

[The Solar King]

Your figures do not accord to the Net Present Value (discounted cash flow model) in PVSOL. If you set inflation rates to 3% and use 8% for energy costs, (this is based on DECC data since 2000), the results are realistic and make installations viable. I also build in £50.00pa for inverter failure.

Are your figures provided by the big six and the nuclear lobby?

 

[moggy1968]

I'm too honest, I'm afraid.
I tell people what they need to know, not what they want to hear.

My honest estimate of the *real* returns, over the 25-year FiT period, from a 4kW PV, would be 4.5% from the 43p FiT and 2.5% from the 21p FiT.
Stockmarkets have historically managed about 5% *real* over long periods of time, while bonds managed about 1% *real* and cash manages 0% real (i.e. cash, even with interest added, only just about holds its ability to buy what it did the day it was squirrelled away).

Then make a best guess as to what inflation will be and add that on top of the *real* return - but remember that gains made from inflation will be offset by the loss of buying power of the money.
Historically, inflation in the UK has averaged about 5% p.a. in the last 25-30 years, so it would be reasonable to add that to the rates of return mentioned above.

43p FiT = 4.5% *real*, 9.5% nominal, p.a.
21p FiT = 2.5% *real*, 7.5% nominal, p.a.

jeeeezzzz, how much are you charging!
for 43.3p At 3% inflation, just 8% fuel inflation and just10p per unit electricity cost I get 22% annualised over the 25 years, and thats at last novembers prices!!

 

[FB.]

jeeeezzzz, how much are you charging!
for 43.3p At 3% inflation, just 8% fuel inflation and just10p per unit electricity cost I get 22% annualised over the 25 years, and thats at last novembers prices!!

Have you taken into account that the money spent on the panels will never be recovered, unlike if the money was put into the bank?

How can you be certain that energy price inflation will be greater than RPI inflation? Wouldn't it be fairer to assume that both will be similar?

In today's money terms, a 4kWp system might be as follows:

£11000 installation cost.
3200kWh generation per year.
£1386 FiT payment (£672 if 21p)
£50 export payment.
£216 savings on annual electricity bill, assuming 50% of generated power is used.

£1386 + £50 + £216 = £1652 p.a. of annual gains (excluding provisions for a new inverter and labour charge after about 15 years)

or, if 21p FiT: £672 + £50 + £216 = £938 p.a.

£1652 x 25 years = £41300 of earnings (43p FiT).
£938 x 25 years = £23450 of earnings (21p FiT).


Turning £11000, with 43p FiT, into £41300 is a 5.4% rate of return (excluding any repairs).
Turning £11000, with 21p FiT, into £23450 is 3.0% annual rate of return (excluding any repairs).

 

[Somecamel]

A 4kw system isn't 11k anymore

 

[FB.]

Why do I keep referring to today's money terms, or *real* returns and not get involved with inflation-adjusted nominal numbers?

Because if you were to put, under the mattress, enough money to buy a new motorbike; you would be lucky to have enough to buy a new pedal cycle in 25 years time.