Soldering

[chris murphy]

Well thanks for the advice Geordie, I managed a couple of hours to play around this afternoon so I bought some fittings, a small nozzle for my oxy-acetylene kit and a couple of different blowtorches and these were the results;

View attachment 19849

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View attachment 19851

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View attachment 19853

Definitely an improvement, I might make the grade as a plumber yet

Thanks again.

"Hello Marvo",

Excellent Soldering ! You really have made a VERY Good job of it !

However I must respond to the comment from shanky887614- I assume that You were Joking [?]


If not: Plumbers are NOT trying to Solder to that standard even at College - they are making Water Tight Joints.

Can You imagine a Plumber trying to Solder to the standard that Marvo carried out / has shown in His Photo`s - throughout a House / Flat - how long would that add to the Installation / and Cost ?

That is apart from the fact that it would be Impossible to achieve !

There is also the fact that unless Solder Ring Fittings are used - when Pipes are horizontal in notches across Joists there will always be a small `run` / `blob` of Solder under the Joint - at the lowest point - this should obviously be wiped off on Surface mounted Pipework.

Regards,

Chris


P.S: Marvo - Regarding your question about Prices for Plumbing Fittings including 54mm End Caps - these range in price here in the U.K. ridiculously from about £20.00 inc. Vat to up to £70.00 inc. ! - the £70.00 one that I noticed was a Delcop End Feed [Solderless] 54mm End Cap !


HERE IS WHERE I WAS LOOKING:

54mm Soldered End Caps/Plumbing Supplies - Google Search


P.P.S: I found a Supplier `Plumblink` in South Africa on that webpage - they are showing 54mm End Caps in Stock - IF I am correct that there are about 15 Rand to the Pound regarding their Price of R76.55 - this looks to be just over £5.00 UK - Plus VAT - ?

They apparently `Deliver anywhere in South Africa for R200.00`

Here is a Link: 54mm Copcal Tube End Cap 617M


I hope that this might be helpful.


Chris

 

[Marvo]

P.S: Marvo - Regarding your question about Prices for Plumbing Fittings including 54mm End Caps - these range in price here in the U.K. ridiculously from about £20.00 inc. Vat to up to £70.00 inc. ! - the £70.00 one that I noticed was a Delcop End Feed [Solderless] 54mm End Cap !


HERE IS WHERE I WAS LOOKING:

54mm Soldered End Caps/Plumbing Supplies - Google Search


P.P.S: I found a Supplier `Plumblink` in South Africa on that webpage - they are showing 54mm End Caps in Stock - IF I am correct that there are about 15 Rand to the Pound regarding their Price of R76.55 - this looks to be just over £5.00 UK - Plus VAT - ?

They apparently `Deliver anywhere in South Africa for R200.00`

Here is a Link: 54mm Copcal Tube End Cap 617M


I hope that this might be helpful.


Chris

Thanks Chris. Plumblink was one of the outlets where I already bought all their remaining stock. The two main importers into SA are also out of stock now so outlets like Plumblink can't get any more either.

The internet listed prices on several of the UK retail sites are extortionate, I'm assuming their prices are aimed at the end-user. I'm paying about 4 UK pounds (Exc VAT) for a plain 54mm stop-end cap and that's buying them by the dozen. I'm hoping to find a main supplier in the UK who can supply several hundred at a time and at a sensible price. I'm also investigating the option of tooling up to make them myself, we have an old semi-automated punching machine and a large press but to get the tool made is obviously a longer term commitment and won't help me with stock in the next month or two.

*edit* I wouldn't take the comments about plumbers to heart, ribbing plumbers is pretty much a standard pastime on the forum

 

[chris murphy]

Thanks Chris. Plumblink was one of the outlets where I already bought all their remaining stock. The two main importers into SA are also out of stock now so outlets like Plumblink can't get any more either.

The internet listed prices on several of the UK retail sites are extortionate, I'm assuming their prices are aimed at the end-user. I'm paying about 4 UK pounds (Exc VAT) for a plain 54mm stop-end cap and that's buying them by the dozen. I'm hoping to find a main supplier in the UK who can supply several hundred at a time and at a sensible price. I'm also investigating the option of tooling up to make them myself, we have an old semi-automated punching machine and a large press but to get the tool made is obviously a longer term commitment and won't help me with stock in the next month or two.

*edit* I wouldn't take the comments about plumbers to heart, ribbing plumbers is pretty much a standard pastime on the forum

Hello Marvo",


Thanks for your reply.


I thought that You would probably know Plumblink - but just in case I mentioned them.


I doubt whether You will find any `reasonable price` for any 54mm Copper Plumbing Fitting in the U.K. - nothing that could compare to approximately £4.00 plus vat.

I have not bought anything in that size for quite some time and I only glanced at a few Suppliers on the Google search results page that I gave the link for - but even then as I mentioned I saw a RIDICULOUS range of prices !


If I had been guessing Yesterday I would have said somewhere between £10 and £12 for a 54mm End Feed [no solder] End Cap - that looks way out !


Good Luck with your search.


I did not take the comment about Plumbers Soldering abilities to heart - I did write `I assume that You are Joking` before I commented further.

However I have noticed that `ribbing Plumbers` is quite prevalent on the Forum.


Regards,


Chris

 

[ruston]

Hello Marvo",


Thanks for your reply.




I thought that You would probably know Plumblink - but just in case I mentioned them.


I doubt whether You will find any `reasonable price` for any 54mm Copper Plumbing Fitting in the U.K. - nothing that could compare to approximately £4.00 plus vat.

I have not bought anything in that size for quite some time and I only glanced at a few Suppliers on the Google search results page that I gave the link for - but even then as I mentioned I saw a RIDICULOUS range of prices !


If I had been guessing Yesterday I would have said somewhere between £10 and £12 for a 54mm End Feed [no solder] End Cap - that looks way out !


Good Luck with your search.


I did not take the comment about Plumbers Soldering abilities to heart - I did write `I assume that You are Joking` before I commented further.

However I have noticed that `ribbing Plumbers` is quite prevalent on the Forum.


Regards,


Chris

Lol , don't worry , it's not just plumbers that get it, the carnivores need regular feeding.:44:

 

[Marvo]

I doubt whether You will find any `reasonable price` for any 54mm Copper Plumbing Fitting in the U.K. - nothing that could compare to approximately £4.00 plus vat.

I've been in contact with 4 UK national suppliers and a UK importer this morning and they all just want to pull my pants down with their prices. I can't even get a price of double what were paying locally and that's not even factoring in the shipping costs . Problem is this particular component is one of the highest cost items in the bill of materials of the lamps (second only to the 6watt GU10 LED lamp) and such a large price increase is having a large knock-on effect on the overall costings and a noticeable effect on the planned retail price point.

I hate to admit it but I'm making a list of suppliers from the Far East and India and opening a throw-away gmail account as we speak

 

[chris murphy]

I've been in contact with 4 UK national suppliers and a UK importer this morning and they all just want to pull my pants down with their prices. I can't even get a price of double what were paying locally and that's not even factoring in the shipping costs . Problem is this particular component is one of the highest cost items in the bill of materials of the lamps (second only to the 6watt GU10 LED lamp) and such a large price increase is having a large knock-on effect on the overall costings and a noticeable effect on the planned retail price point.

I hate to admit it but I'm making a list of suppliers from the Far East and India and opening a throw-away gmail account as we speak

"Hello again Marvo",

Sorry to read that You cannot find a Supplier who wants anything like the Price that You have been paying for the Fittings - unfortunately I am not surprised - `Large` Copper Plumbing fittings are not used in all but the Biggest Domestic Properties so they are mainly purchased by Companies that carry out `Commercial` / Industrial Plumbing Works - and are priced accordingly.

You might try looking for `Non Pressure rated` Copper Waste water Fittings - which as they are NOT rated for Water Services are not as `well made` in terms of thickness - but are still a Soldered fitting - these Copper Waste Fittings are usually much less expensive.


BUT - there would not be much demand for a 54mm Copper End CAP in a Waste water quality fitting - IF I needed to Cap a 54mm Copper Waste Pipe I would not bother looking to find a Waste water quality Cap I would just buy a `normal` End Feed one - so You might be out of luck regarding that ?

Just a thought - although I cannot recommend any particular Supplier for Copper Waste water quality soldered fittings.

I have installed quite a lot of Copper Waste pipes and Soil Pipe Floats in places like Hotels - Hospitals and Restaurants - But the materials have always been supplied by the Contractor that I have been Subcontracting for.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Marvo]

We also install copper drains occasionally on cooling towers (usually 76mm), if it's clean water we just use the standard copcal plumbing fittings. If it's a drain for contaminated water we use imperial refrigeration fittings because the elbows and bends are long-radius and can be rodded in the event of a blockage.


I've also investigated using imperial refrigeration fittings but they're equally scarce in the larger sizes, the refrigeration bends are more expensive but the end caps are roughly the same price. Problem is that we'd need to manually swage each fitting slightly to make it work with the metric pipe. This obviously takes time and effort so it also adds to the cost.

I've never seen or heard of the lower quality drain fittings you mention but I'll certainly look into it especially if they're cheaper. One thing I've noticed with the larger sized copper pipe and fittings is there doesn't seem to be a price difference between Class 0, Class 1 and Class 2. Not sure why this is because in the smaller sizes you pay more for the better class but I got a quote on some 76mm pipe today and class1 is the same price as class 2.

 

[chris murphy]

We also install copper drains occasionally on cooling towers (usually 76mm), if it's clean water we just use the standard copcal plumbing fittings. If it's a drain for contaminated water we use imperial refrigeration fittings because the elbows and bends are long-radius and can be rodded in the event of a blockage.


I've also investigated using imperial refrigeration fittings but they're equally scarce in the larger sizes, the refrigeration bends are more expensive but the end caps are roughly the same price. Problem is that we'd need to manually swage each fitting slightly to make it work with the metric pipe. This obviously takes time and effort so it also adds to the cost.

I've never seen or heard of the lower quality drain fittings you mention but I'll certainly look into it especially if they're cheaper. One thing I've noticed with the larger sized copper pipe and fittings is there doesn't seem to be a price difference between Class 0, Class 1 and Class 2. Not sure why this is because in the smaller sizes you pay more for the better class but I got a quote on some 76mm pipe today and class1 is the same price as class 2.

"Hello Marvo",


I have found a Supplier here in the U.K. that have 54mm End Feed Stop End [End Cap] for £3.86 plus vat. each.

They are called BES - Plumbing Supplies | BES Gas & Plumbing Fittings - - I have used them myself some Years ago and they were very Professional regarding Ordering and Delivery - at that time it was Telephone Ordering.

If You click onto `Pipe & Fittings` - then from the list `Pipe Fittings - Capillary` - then just scroll down through the Fittings you will come to the `Stop Ends - End Feed` = £3.86 [plus 20% vat]

They also have 54mm Fitting Reducers at reasonable prices - but I did not see 54mm to 15mm Reducing couplings.

This is a fairly large - well known Supplier - I know they have the facility to ship overseas - but they state that `there may be Countries that we will not deliver to` - I obviously don`t know if that includes South Africa ?

I hope that this may be of some help Marvo.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Marvo]

Thanks again for the info Chris, much appreciated. The BES guys look very promising, their prices are sensible (similar to my local suppliers) and I'll contact them tomorrow. They also have some very interesting fittings you don't usually find like the brass manifolds etc. Also some interesting sizes in normal fittings, I've never seen stop-ends in 14mm and 16mm for example.

Didn't realise VAT in the UK was 20%, I'm sure it was less that that last time I was there. My purchases should be VAT exempt on the UK export side, usually with imports we get hit for VAT on our side which is 14%.

Cheers
Marv.

 

[Martyc]

VAT used to be 17.5%, but dropped to 15% for a short period to stimulate the economy.
BES are good, I've used them for various supplies over the last couple of years and they normally get stuff out to us next day when it's in stock, which our normally is. Not always the cheapest but they're fairly competitive and reliable when I've used them.

 

[chris murphy]

Thanks again for the info Chris, much appreciated. The BES guys look very promising, their prices are sensible (similar to my local suppliers) and I'll contact them tomorrow. They also have some very interesting fittings you don't usually find like the brass manifolds etc. Also some interesting sizes in normal fittings, I've never seen stop-ends in 14mm and 16mm for example.




Didn't realise VAT in the UK was 20%, I'm sure it was less that that last time I was there. My purchases should be VAT exempt on the UK export side, usually with imports we get hit for VAT on our side which is 14%.

Cheers
Marv.

"Hello Marvo",

Good luck with your enquiry / order from BES - I hope that you can arrange shipping to South Africa at a reasonable price.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Marvo]

Just wanted to update, I eventually went the route of making our own end caps, the import price with shipping was just too high.

I've made 5 sets of tooling for our workshop press (15mm, 54mm, 67mm, 76mm & 108mm), at this stage it's just mild steel prototypes but with stamping out just copper plate they'll probably last a while.

Here's a few of the finished items.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Just wanted to update, I eventually went the route of making our own end caps, the import price with shipping was just too high.

I've made 5 sets of tooling for our workshop press (15mm, 54mm, 67mm, 76mm & 108mm), at this stage it's just mild steel prototypes but with stamping out just copper plate they'll probably last a while.

Here's a few of the finished items.

View attachment 20063

View attachment 20064

Very good Marvo.

I agree the mild steel toolling will last a while providing the copper in nice & soft, or you could maybe case-harden the mild steel?

It saves the expense & aggravation of buying & machining "proper" tool steel.

I once made tooling for artillery shell cases and I can't now remember almost 40 years ago what the material was but I remember it was work hardening all the time I was machining it & we had to keep chucking it into the forge fire to soften it up before continuing further machining.

The boss lost a fortune on that job because he priced it not realising how much time would be lost on these repeated softening up processes.

 

[Marvo]

I priced tool steel and it would cost an arm and a leg. I could probably case harden the mild steel but now I've got the tooling designs saved as iges files it would only take a couple of hours to remake them from scratch if the go out of tolerance. The 2mm copper plate I'm stamping isn't soft or annealed, it's pretty hard as copper goes, I guess only time will tell how long they run.

 

[Geordie Spark]

I priced tool steel and it would cost an arm and a leg. I could probably case harden the mild steel but now I've got the tooling designs saved as iges files it would only take a couple of hours to remake them from scratch if the go out of tolerance. The 2mm copper plate I'm stamping isn't soft or annealed, it's pretty hard as copper goes, I guess only time will tell how long they run.

Aye well ....... just keep an eye on it & see how it goes.