stupid or cowboys

[glasgospark]

house visit today to quote for rewire lights on the basis the lights had no earth , already made my mind up 99.9% that there is a earth before i even step foot in house.
2 sparks before me said , defo needs rewired no earth

walked in light hanging from ceiling not secured i asked whats the prob customer replied no earth cable at lights , so i visualy tested it and seen all done in conduit ,
grabbed megger done Zs would you believe it a efli reading that was within the max allowed in reg book.

2 companys before never tested at all and said rewire needed 100%

guess im to honest

 

[Engineer54]

Yes best practise would always have a flying lead, however if I came accross it on an I&T as long as it had good continuity to fittings would just put it as c3.

Have i understood you correctly here, if an earthed conduit system had a flying lead connection between the earthed conduit and the light fitting you would code it a code 3??

 

[telectrix]

Eng. , i think he meant lack of a flying lead and he would code C3.

 

[somersetsparks]

Have i understood you correctly here, if an earthed conduit system had a flying lead connection between the earthed conduit and the light fitting you would code it a code 3??

Yes sorry meant to say that it should have a flying lead but if it didn't but still had good r2 readings to the fittings I would just code as c3.

 

[Toonlad]

Going back to original post, i think a lot of it stems from inexperiance IMO, And time is money. To many just have a quick glance,,,, ohh no earth. Instead of haveing a deeper look, and get the test gear out and R2 everything. It really doesnt take long.

 

[Engineer54]

Yes sorry meant to say that it should have a flying lead but if it didn't but still had good r2 readings to the fittings I would just code as c3.

I did think that's what you meant to say, but wasn't sure, due to how you worded the post!! lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

Going back to original post, i think a lot of it stems from inexperiance IMO, And time is money. To many just have a quick glance,,,, ohh no earth. Instead of haveing a deeper look, and get the test gear out and R2 everything. It really doesnt take long.

They don't seem to put much emphasis on teaching metal containment (conduit/trunking) at the collages these day's like they used too, let alone teaching them the many benefits they bring to an electrical installation. Which is why many can't understand why you don't need to fill conduits and the like, with CPC's in such installations... They just do it because they know no different!! lol!!

Anyone remember those old conduited fuse board installations posted here a few weeks ago, without a single CPC to be seen, not even an earth bar in the fuse boards?? What some here would ever make of that, i don't know!! I think i actually re-posted one of the photo's, pointing out the lack of CPC's.

 

[somersetsparks]

They don't seem to put much emphasis on teaching metal containment (conduit/trunking) at the collages these day's like they used too, let alone teaching them the many benefits they bring to an electrical installation. Which is why many can't understand why you don't need to fill conduits and the like, with CPC's in such installations... They just do it because they know no different!! lol!!

Anyone remember those old conduited fuse board installations posted here a few weeks ago, without a single CPC to be seen, not even an earth bar in the fuse boards?? What some here would ever make of that, i don't know!! I think i actually re-posted one of the photo's, pointing out the lack of CPC's.

I tested a casting factory fairly recently with all of the original boards with no earth wiring, MEM from the mid-sixties, all conduits with flange couplers and lead washers, earth loops were brilliant given the length of circuits! Lots of 1 1/2" Conduit and even some 2" in the mains room (only straight lengths mind!) The worst thing IMO was when when tin-pot contacting added a couple of new circuits and started string randon G/Y about the place, I always think its better to keep with the original system of installation

 

[johnboy6083]

The only problem with carrying out proper design is that the next person behind you will spout off about the common myths of our trade, and as they are widely held, most would agree with them. I'm all for engineering solutions and using the least amount of materials, but most sparks think it's not allowed any more.

i had a row with my foreman as be added a note on my test sheet for a job, stating that the earthing for the submain to our equipment was not permitted by 7671, as it relied upon the frame of the switchgear (old English electric busbar chamber, in lovely condition, Zs was fine)
he told me I was wrong and that the regs are open to interpretation. I told him to read section 54 of the regs, but I don't think he wants to listen to a 26 year old spark, when he's a 54 year old foreman.

 

[somersetsparks]

The only problem with carrying out proper design is that the next person behind you will spout off about the common myths of our trade, and as they are widely held, most would agree with them. I'm all for engineering solutions and using the least amount of materials, but most sparks think it's not allowed any more.

i had a row with my foreman as be added a note on my test sheet for a job, stating that the earthing for the submain to our equipment was not permitted by 7671, as it relied upon the frame of the switchgear (old English electric busbar chamber, in lovely condition, Zs was fine)
he told me I was wrong and that the regs are open to interpretation. I told him to read section 54 of the regs, but I don't think he wants to listen to a 26 year old spark, when he's a 54 year old foreman.

Your dead right mate and its a crying shame, The IEE should really issue some sort of guidance on accepatble earthing, I see so many glands where they havent even scratched the paint off underneath because 'its got an earth core so it doesn't matter'.
The same casting factory mentioned above had an installation cert for some circuits added a few years ago and the lack or cpc wiring in the rest of the installtion was noted as a deviation! Just shows you what your up against.

 

[Engineer54]

I tested a casting factory fairly recently with all of the original boards with no earth wiring, MEM from the mid-sixties, all conduits with flange couplers and lead washers, earth loops were brilliant given the length of circuits! Lots of 1 1/2" Conduit and even some 2" in the mains room (only straight lengths mind!) The worst thing IMO was when when tin-pot contacting added a couple of new circuits and started string randon G/Y about the place, I always think its better to keep with the original system of installation

As i say, they don't know any different!! The conduit system will always provide a far superior earthing system than CPC's in final circuits!!

We used to have to bend 3'' conduits when i was training, but then the company did have all the bending equipment to do it!! lol!! As far as i remember they used to manufacture slow/long 90 degree bends etc for the larger sized conduits. The other boxes for larger conduits, were something like 6'' X 6'' square spouted malleable iron boxes for Through, Tee, stop end, etc!! You knew you'd been to work that day when you were working on that bigger stuff!! ...lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

The only problem with carrying out proper design is that the next person behind you will spout off about the common myths of our trade, and as they are widely held, most would agree with them. I'm all for engineering solutions and using the least amount of materials, but most sparks think it's not allowed any more.

i had a row with my foreman as he added a note on my test sheet for a job, stating that the earthing for the submain to our equipment was not permitted by 7671, as it relied upon the frame of the switchgear (old English electric busbar chamber, in lovely condition, Zs was fine)
he told me I was wrong and that the regs are open to interpretation. I told him to read section 54 of the regs, but I don't think he wants to listen to a 26 year old spark, when he's a 54 year old foreman.

Old enough to know better!! lol!!

 

[Guest55]

Biff will sort you out he knows all the short cuts

i know plenty of short cuts.
whats your point ?

 

[sparkman]

fair play earthed conduit but if you rewired it u would add a cpc???? but if there was no problems with the cables why say it needs rewired . some one trying there luck to me for a easy job on tie on n pull lights ...crooks

 

[mselect]

Inexperience i.e. ignorance, isn't allowable as a defence!

Yep that's right.... regulation 25 Defence is what gets you. "competent-Person".

 

[mselect]

house visit today to quote for rewire lights on the basis the lights had no earth , already made my mind up 99.9% that there is a earth before i even step foot in house.
2 sparks before me said , defo needs rewired no earth

walked in light hanging from ceiling not secured i asked whats the prob customer replied no earth cable at lights , so i visualy tested it and seen all done in conduit , grabbed megger done Zs would you believe it a efli reading that was within the max allowed in reg book.

When you say figures complied with regs.... did you X0.8 the regs value. E

Eg.. Type B6 BS60898 Max Zs in Regs 7.67. Actual Allowed is 6.13.

Just Checking...oliceman: