Suppliers Earth TN-S

[Roger]

Is it ok for you to connect to it ? earth clamp to sheath.

I had a call tonight and a customer could not reset his RCD so no power at all.Ok fixed the fault unlpugged the kettle and it reset as soon as we plug it in it tripped so power all restored.Bid disadvantage of having 1 RCD for whole house.
Double checked earth loop and got over 8.2 ohms on 32amp ring main and thought it could be a loose connection so did cooker socket and got 7.92 for a 40 amp MCB.
Nice bit of 10mm cable on gas and water but no EARTH at meter head,no MET nothing.Had board changed about 10 years ago he said.
All the houses roughly the same in the street all built same time so popped next door and they had a TN-S.Soldered to a wide strip of woven braided steel strap.
So fitted a clamp on cable sheath ,16mm to a MET and 16mm to CU and gas and water connected ,rechecked and got 0.62 ohms on ring so happier now.
I am amazed that it had no earth at all and had been like it for years.It has even had a new digital meter fitted and you would have thought that the meter fitter might have noticed.
No cup of coffee as kettle knackered but £10 tip for coming out.
Should i inform DNO ?

 

[Geordie Spark]

Looks like as usual there’s a big difference between utopia and reality.
Yes we should stick to the letter of the law. The DNO will arrive on their magic carpet within half an hour. Fix the problem with a wave of their magic wand.
Now lets put our realist hat on, the DNO will arrive on an ox cart 3 months after you’ve asked them to attend. Not having the gear needed they’ll clear off for a fortnight.
As a responsible person what do you do for the customer:
· walk away and pretend you’ve not seen the problem
· tell them and put the fear of god up them for the next few months
· do what you can with what you’ve got to hand?

So far, they've made 3 visits to upgrade their tails from VIR to something more suitable & they still haven't done it.

Another visit is sheduled for next Wednesday !!!

 

[Knobhead]

That looks like an old metal cut out.

The DNO in my area (NEDL) are changing one of these at one of my customer's houses as they are no longer permitted & they have to change them free of charge to the customer.

They have to dig a hole outside the house & chop the cable to isolate the metal cut out, fit a new plastec one then reconnect the cable & make good the hole.

This gets just gets better! So some poor jointer has to climb in a wet muddy hole and split a live paper lead! Breaking through the lead is when things are liable to go wrong. The jointer has to wait for the numpty to change the head, then he has to make a joint, which includes clamps or plumbing on to the lead. To add to jointers misery it’ll probably start raining.

And yes I’ve been the poor sod down the hole. Not working for a DNO but on an industrial site. DNO trained though.

 

[BOROROBBO]

telectrix,

I can't believe you left a dangerous installation in service for 5 months, or are you saying you broke the law to make it in your opinion safe, in a manner which in the eyes of the ESC, the NIC, probably the IET & the DNO's is dangerous in itself?

Which one of these criminal, incompetent and downright dangerous acts was it?

what would you have done netblind paul?

left the installation in a dangerous condition while waiting for a DNO to pull their finger out of their arse or would you have fitted a clamp to make the installation safe?

 

[flukey]

what would you have done netblind paul?

left the installation in a dangerous condition while waiting for a DNO to pull their finger out of their arse or would you have fitted a clamp to make the installation safe?

surely the only sensible thing to do would be bang a rod in until the dno pull their finger out of their arse

then when they do turn up they can put the 951 clamp on

 

[netblindpaul]

I would have had the DNO there within hours tops mate not months, there are ways and means of doing this correctly.
Else TT it is.

 

[pennywise]

I usually tell the DNO that it's a lone women with a child, seems to work a treat

 

[alanl]

I would have had the DNO there within hours tops mate not months, there are ways and means of doing this correctly.
Else TT it is.

I had this problem in my house. BS951 on the TN-S sheaf. Rang up EON, who said they wouldn't touch it, but they could come and make it PME for £360.
Spoke to a few other sparkies who mostly said keep trying, and they will eventually send somebody round to put the correct earth clamp on. It never worked, I tried 3 times, got put through to various departments, and was eventually told they have no duty to maintain the earth clamp to the customer. This was wrong, but for different reasons.
I didnt believe them, and after some research, found it was true, in a roundabout way.
The legislation is here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/made

It is 24 (4) that is appropriate:
"(4) Unless he can reasonably conclude that it is inappropriate for reasons of safety, a distributor shall, when providing a new connection at low voltage, make available his supply neutral conductor or, if appropriate, the protective conductor of his network for connection to the protective conductor of the consumer’s installation."

The reason they give for not fitting a new earth clamp is safety. They cannot know what condition the incoming line cables are on old installs, so do not want to risk the safety of their workers, when an easily done modification (TN-C-S) is available.

So if you can get your DNO to come out and fit a new earth clamp, then you have done well, as they are not obliged, on older properties, to repair it.

Alan.

 

[Des 56]

If you work on an installation,you have to leave the installation with a suitable earth,there can be no argument against that at all
Safety has to be No 1 on our list at all times

As far as dno equipment is concerned,my attitude is I will make my installation safe,whether that means eg installaing meter tails or isolating the supply to work on it safely or providing the necessary earth connection which may entail connecting to a pme terminal at the cut out
The danger of fitting the wrong type of clamp to a lead sheathed cable is very very real,care would have to be taken even with a suitable clamp

As much as I state that H+S is strangling our country
I still believe that health and safety is very very important,but that safety should be in the hands of the person doing whatever work it is they do,otherwise they shouldn't be doing that work

My own belief is that you should not get into a situation where the decision to do anything to the lead sheath has to be made
That should always, without exception be checked, along with bonding before any installation work is carried out

The downside to our industry is this fragmentation of the supply sector to such a degree that they dont know or dont care about the complete farce they have made to anybody trying first to have contact with them, and second the total dis organised chaos they have made of addressing these issues,simply because there is no profit to be gained in those issues

 

[Geordie Spark]

If you work on an installation,you have to leave the installation with a suitable earth,there can be no argument against that at all
Safety has to be No 1 on our list at all times

As far as dno equipment is concerned,my attitude is I will make my installation safe,whether that means eg installaing meter tails or isolating the supply to work on it safely or providing the necessary earth connection which may entail connecting to a pme terminal at the cut out
The danger of fitting the wrong type of clamp to a lead sheathed cable is very very real,care would have to be taken even with a suitable clamp

As much as I state that H+S is strangling our country
I still believe that health and safety is very very important,but that safety should be in the hands of the person doing whatever work it is they do,otherwise they shouldn't be doing that work

My own belief is that you should not get into a situation where the decision to do anything to the lead sheath has to be made
That should always, without exception be checked, along with bonding before any installation work is carried out

The downside to our industry is this fragmentation of the supply sector to such a degree that they dont know or dont care about the complete farce they have made to anybody trying first to have contact with them, and second the total dis organised chaos they have made of addressing these issues,simply because there is no profit to be gained in those issues

And that hits the nail very firmly & squarely on the head.

 

[BlueToBits]

I have to agree with Des and Geordie, but that still doesn't address the problem. I've seen the aftermath of a lead supply cable blowing and its enough for me to never even think about trying to attach a 951 clamp. And yes, I would leave it without an earth if the client did not want to pay for a TT. I'm not risking my life and liberty so that the client can save a few quid.

 

[Daveyboy]

Biggest advice I can give to anyone is be persistant with the dno, they kept on giving me different numbers and fobbing me off. In the end when I spoke to a new lady I said "this is a very dangerous situation and needs to be sorted!!!!! oh by the way what is your name?" then to my surprise she said I will put a call out for you ref no......
with in half an hour nice old bloke turns up & bobs your uncle. He did say that they are not obliged to make a connection and could quite rightly charge me for a pme upgrade but as I got a good reading off the sheath he made my day.
I'm now going to earth the metal service head aswell.

Before After


I learnt a valuable lesson- in my own very house!!! test ze with main earthing conductor disconnected from main earthing terminal before I change a CU. I tested zs at the socket & got a very good reading & thought all was hunky dory when I was only getting a reading through the water and gas pipe.

 

[aptsys]

Result!

 

[pennywise]

Biggest advice I can give to anyone is be persistant with the dno, they kept on giving me different numbers and fobbing me off. In the end when I spoke to a new lady I said "this is a very dangerous situation and needs to be sorted!!!!! oh by the way what is your name?" then to my surprise she said I will put a call out for you ref no......
with in half an hour nice old bloke turns up & bobs your uncle. He did say that they are not obliged to make a connection and could quite rightly charge me for a pme upgrade but as I got a good reading off the sheath he made my day.
I'm now going to earth the metal service head aswell.

Before After
View attachment 5940 View attachment 5939

I learnt a valuable lesson- in my own very house!!! test ze with main earthing conductor disconnected from main earthing terminal before I change a CU. I tested zs at the socket & got a very good reading & thought all was hunky dory when I was only getting a reading through the water and gas pipe.

Just as a matter of interest why is there no supply neutral in the meter above the cut out? Apologies if I've seen it wrong

 

[aptsys]

The neutral inside those meters is a solid link - the meter only uses the neutral for measurement of voltage and phase angle. Since the tails go back into the cast iron enclosure, it was probably easier to just take the neutral from the cut-out.

 

[pennywise]

cheers