taking on an apprentice

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pcam1984

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Hi,

Just looking for some advice. I have been self employed for nearly 6 months now (sole trader), things have went better than I had expected for a new start up especially where I am based. I have managed to pick up a few contracts that bring in regular work and my phone and email doesn't seem to stop with new enquiries. I am at the stage where I feel I could be doing with some extra help and am trying to find out how complicated taking on an apprentice is, or if I would be better trying to find someone fully qualified.

Any advice appreciated.
 
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Pcam I am in the same position I've been paying a friend who's qualified it's nice to be on a job where I show him what's got to be done and leave him to it while I get on too. Obviously costs more but I get jobs done quicker so can fit more in. It's maybe worth going to a college and asking to talk to some 2nd year apprentices that's what I think I'm going to do this year so they at least know the basics
 
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Thanks Lewis, I think I will try to contact one of the training officers locally. Things are different up here, in order to do the college side you have to be in employment and do a block release to college.
 
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I'm wondering on the cost effectiveness of taking on an apprentice. Cost of apprenticeship to you. How certain you'll keep your current workload, what happens to apprentice if your work drop off. Effect on your business, when apprentice becomes qualified, and leaves. Would it not be better to employ (as a subby) another electrician or electricians mate?
(Don't know how apprenticeships function these days, in terms of who pays what?)
 
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Risteard said:
For a start you can't employ a subbie as a subbie is not an employee but a sub-contractor - you can only sub-contract to them. It is illegal to masquerade an employment relationship as a false self-employment relationship.
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I wasn't suggestion the OP does anything illegal. Moreover he considers his position as an employer, with an employee as an apprentice, and the responsibilities that ensue for the employer under employment law, and if not a moral responsibility for such.

I was suggesting that if the OP was considered as a 'contractor' as defined by Construction Industry Scheme and registered with said scheme, he could subcontract work to a subcontractor (electrician).

This may be more beneficial to OP, dependant on his projected business opportunities that may or may not materialise, and could be adjusted dependant on business volumes.

It would be a shame to take on a young person as an apprentice, who visualises a career with OP's business to achieve a qualification as an electrician, but does not come to fruition because of a downfall in the company business (not suggest it does OP). I personally feel it is a huge responsibility to take on employees, and should be given full & appropriate consideration.

I hope this puts my previous post in a more pedantic manner.
 
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I fully agree, the main thing holding me back is the concern that I may not be able to sustain this level of work for a full apprenticeship. On the other hand if I don't take someone on I'm really going to struggle. I've got to be able to grow my business as and when required in order to take on more work, I also don't want to let down some smaller customers who have been with me from the start just because I can get more work from a bigger client.
I'm going to leave it for another month to see how things are going and also arrange meeting with local training officer to see what the real commitments and costs are.
 
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stevey1983 said:
Not really, as the person will obviously know its a zero hour contract. Some people do prefer them for there life style as it works both ways ;)
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Bollox they are a national disgrace and should be banned. Who the hell, either qualified to do such work or hoping to train, is going to be able to live properly on this outrageous none-sense. This makes my blood boil, would you work on a zero hours contract? Don't believe the Tory bull**** that some people prefer them, the only people who prefer them are students flipping burgers. Zero hours contracts, along with intern-ships, should be scrapped ASAP.
 
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sparksburnout said:
Bollox they are a national disgrace and should be banned. Who the hell, either qualified to do such work or hoping to train, is going to be able to live properly on this outrageous none-sense. This makes my blood boil, would you work on a zero hours contract? Don't believe the Tory bull**** that some people prefer them, the only people who prefer them are students flipping burgers. Zero hours contracts, along with intern-ships, should be scrapped ASAP.
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I have to agree too, best if all is SE, otherwise no, I would not entertain a job on paye, if no contracted hours were applied.
 
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sparksburnout said:
Bollox they are a national disgrace and should be banned. Who the hell, either qualified to do such work or hoping to train, is going to be able to live properly on this outrageous none-sense. This makes my blood boil, would you work on a zero hours contract? Don't believe the Tory bull**** that some people prefer them, the only people who prefer them are students flipping burgers. Zero hours contracts, along with intern-ships, should be scrapped ASAP.
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Yes I do work on a zero hours contract on one of my jobs and I am very happy with the arrangement! I pay PAYE tax through it so have a vastly reduced end of year tax bill.
I doubt touring theatres could survive without their casual crew being on zero hour contracts.
 
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pcam1984 said:
I fully agree, the main thing holding me back is the concern that I may not be able to sustain this level of work for a full apprenticeship. On the other hand if I don't take someone on I'm really going to struggle. I've got to be able to grow my business as and when required in order to take on more work, I also don't want to let down some smaller customers who have been with me from the start just because I can get more work from a bigger client.
I'm going to leave it for another month to see how things are going and also arrange meeting with local training officer to see what the real commitments and costs are.
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I took on my youngest son as my apprentice last September, it is a major committment but can also be very rewarding - although it really does take some time before a new apprentice will actually start to make a significant contribution to the work being done. You pay the wages but the training is funded- you pay monthly 'up front' and get lump sums back after 4 months, half way through and on successful completion - as a sole trader [I am too] the incentive payments are higher and you end up 'in pocket' by a small amount. Already my lad is doing some useful bits and pieces [closely supervised of course] and I find you can get more done in a day so it's all good really. :smiley2:
 
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davesparks said:
Yes I do work on a zero hours contract on one of my jobs and I am very happy with the arrangement! I pay PAYE tax through it so have a vastly reduced end of year tax bill.
I doubt touring theatres could survive without their casual crew being on zero hour contracts.
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Rubbish. Typical southern Tory heartland comment
 
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have been in the same position before and took a qualified lad on the books first and recently took an apprentice on and am still thinking of a third guy but at the minute just use a subby to take up the slack.
Trust me you find the work, it seems the more commitments you have the more this drives you to succeed, Take my first lad that I took on I was really worried I couldn't sustain the work but now I can't imagine the firm without him and would go down fighting to keep him in work.
So from my own personal experience I would firstly get a qualified lad and build the work up together and then look towards an apprentice because it is a lot easier with 2 of you to train and guide him.
If you get a brand new ( out of the box lad ) then believe me they can be like new born babies, you literally have to spoon feed them, but then the magic bit happens over night! they suddenly start to learn the job and along come the rewards.
This is only my experience and opinion, do with it what you like.
 
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sparksburnout said:
davesparks said:
Yes I do work on a zero hours contract on one of my jobs and I am very happy with the arrangement! I pay PAYE tax through it so have a vastly reduced end of year tax bill.
I doubt touring theatres could survive without their casual crew being on zero hour contracts.
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Rubbish. Typical southern Tory heartland comment
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yes your right, we should have a dictatorship in this country and take away people's choices. No one is forced into a job. People make choices. Think you need to take a chill pill and open your mind
 
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stevey1983 said:
yes your right, we should have a dictatorship in this country and take away people's choices. No one is forced into a job. People make choices. Think you need to take a chill pill and open your mind
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People, with very few exceptions, do not make the choice to work on zero hours contracts. Most people who do are in fortunate positions where not working wouldn't affect their ability to pay bills, childcare and everything else. Most of them are students working for beer money, or a few Luvvy's as in Dave's example. This has nothing to do with dictatorships, is has to do with giving people proper opportunities and not exploiting them. If you think zero hours contracts are ethical or have any place in a fair society then I think it is you who needs to open your mind. And while you are it it, to quote a well known phrase which you have probably never heard of, on the the way home, bonnie lad, get yourself a copy of the daily mail.
 
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davesparks said:
What? Rubbish that I'm on a zero hours contract or rubbish that it works for me?
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Your very fortunate that it works for you then, most people are forced into them and it certainly does not work for them. Having a proper job with proper conditions usually does work for them. You need to get in the buy yourself a copy of the daily mail on the way home club.
 
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sparksburnout said:
Your very fortunate that it works for you then, most people are forced into them and it certainly does not work for them. Having a proper job with proper conditions usually does work for them. You need to get in the buy yourself a copy of the daily mail on the way home club.
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The daily mail is well known for telling lies about everything, why would I want to read it?

For me it's a job as a casual theatre technician, the local theatre has a different touring show each week with different crew requirements. They call crew and offer them work when it's available, we take the work we can do and leave the rest. In months when there is little work they put through accumulated holiday hours to make up the shortfall.
Being zero hours it's PAYE so offsets my tax bill at the end of the year from my being SE. I could do the same job SE but then the income wouldn't be taxed so I'd get a bigger tax bill in one hit at the end of the year. For me it's no different to doing work under CIS
 
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davesparks said:
The daily mail is well known for telling lies about everything, why would I want to read it?

For me it's a job as a casual theatre technician, the local theatre has a different touring show each week with different crew requirements. They call crew and offer them work when it's available, we take the work we can do and leave the rest. In months when there is little work they put through accumulated holiday hours to make up the shortfall.
Being zero hours it's PAYE so offsets my tax bill at the end of the year from my being SE. I could do the same job SE but then the income wouldn't be taxed so I'd get a bigger tax bill in one hit at the end of the year. For me it's no different to doing work under CIS
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You have used the phrase "for me" a few times here. "For most" it is crap.
 
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Midwest said:
I've never heard of it, what does the phrase mean?
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Well maybe phrase was the wrong choice of wording, more a historical quote from a very much loved and socially poignant TV series a good few years ago. I bet Geordie sparks will know where it comes from. Anyone else?
 
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Midwest said:
I don't want to know where it comes from, just what it means?
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Its a social/political statement, which has its roots in criticising the poor employment practices of its time, which seem to be making a comeback with such things as zero hours contracts now. What is means is, that the daily mail is seen by many people as a Tory rag that supports such things and that most decent working class people wouldn't wipe there --- on, a bit like the sun. Anyway I think someone will come up with the name of the program in a bit........
 
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sparksburnout said:
You have used the phrase "for me" a few times here. "For most" it is crap.
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...It was good enough for a vast sway of large,blue-chip employers,tight to the last Labour government,who are still using them now...

Let us separate politics from business practice...if "new" Labour did not teach us that,then...:devil:
 
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sparksburnout said:
Its a social/political statement, which has its roots in criticising the poor employment practices of its time, which seem to be making a comeback with such things as zero hours contracts now. What is means is, that the daily mail is seen by many people as a Tory rag that supports such things and that most decent working class people wouldn't wipe there --- on, a bit like the sun. Anyway I think someone will come up with the name of the program in a bit........
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Oh I see, thanks for explaining that. I quickly 'googled' zero hours contracts, and it would appear there are pros & cons. I suspect its more pro, if it's not your main source of employment. Also what side of the political fence your on, seems to bias opinion. Fortunate enough to have softer paper to use myself, but in an emergency, I wouldn't care which of the tabloids I used.
 
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...This thread got all "boys from the black stuff" very quick...

...I only tuned in,coz i thought someone was having a stand-up bare-fist straightener,with their padowan...:28:
 
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Midwest said:
Oh I see, thanks for explaining that. I quickly 'googled' zero hours contracts, and it would appear there are pros & cons. I suspect its more pro, if it's not your main source of employment. Also what side of the political fence your on, seems to bias opinion. Fortunate enough to have softer paper to use myself, but in an emergency, I wouldn't care which of the tabloids I used.
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well you got one bit right, there are pro's if you are a large unscrupulous supermarket who can use a pool of labour as if they are some sort of disposable commodity, and cons if you happen to be of the labour force on the receiving end. To be honest if you need to google what a zero hours contract is I think I might be wasting my time here. I suppose you imagine Google are another upstanding set of chaps.
 
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sparksburnout said:
well you got one bit right, there are pro's if you are a large unscrupulous supermarket who can use a pool of labour as if they are some sort of disposable commodity, and cons if you happen to be of the labour force on the receiving end. To be honest if you need to google what a zero hours contract is I think I might be wasting my time here. I suppose you imagine Google are another upstanding set of chaps.
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I always try to look at both sides of the argument, and whilst I think I'm brilliant, I can't be expected to know about everything. As regarding Google, is there a particular search engine,or other research facility I should use (as it seems The Daily Mail isn't currently popular). The copy of Encyclopedia Britannica I have doesn't seem to cover it?
 
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Thanks for your input Dave. I'm going to have a look at both options and see what will work best at the moment, I suppose there are lots of pros and cons to both time served and apprentices.

I think it's more the thought that if I take someone on my business decisions not only affect me but someone else, potentially with kids, mortgage etc.

As for the ongoing debate over zero hours contracts, it's not an option that I will be considering. They may work for some people but this surely has to be the minority. If any of you would like to share experience of growing your business or employing staff then feel free to share!
 
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What's the incentive Dave??




Dave OCD said:
I took on my youngest son as my apprentice last September, it is a major committment but can also be very rewarding - although it really does take some time before a new apprentice will actually start to make a significant contribution to the work being done. You pay the wages but the training is funded- you pay monthly 'up front' and get lump sums back after 4 months, half way through and on successful completion - as a sole trader [I am too] the incentive payments are higher and you end up 'in pocket' by a small amount. Already my lad is doing some useful bits and pieces [closely supervised of course] and I find you can get more done in a day so it's all good really. :smiley2:
Click to expand...
 
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Hello cattle. you must be new around here, so welcome.

But its always worth looking at the date on topics before you reply...
That one is from way back in January, so I expect that any incentive has been spent by now....;)
 
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