Teaser for the Newbies...

[Darkwood]

You just did LOL

My Opening Post was regarding plugging flexed equipment into the fixed installation and this reg expresses that the regulations regarding overload protection do not extend to 'in my case' the jet wash so the flex does not necessarily have to be increased to 4mm/6mm due the the plug top been increased and the nature of the circuit having a front end 32amp protection ... its often a mistake i see where chapter 43 is extended to portable equipment with plugs on ... i was defining the boundaries with my original question.

To note here manufacturers guidelines will overrule anything suggested here and the only concern you should have is if the equipment has zero overload protection due to the nature of the load and dosn't require it that the S/C protection still meets requirements of any flex left at its original size as the time/curve of the front end device with be longer. This could be an issue with long flexes.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ahh wait my apologies mis read the quote

But yes I agree with what you are saying.
However me being me I would just change the socket to a 16A and then there is no questions or worries as to whats plugged in.
Personally I dont trust manufacturers of anything when it comes to these sort of things.

When I used to do lots of PAT I came accross many items which I was dumfounded by including badly terminated plugs on a brand new extension lead and the worst one ever was a class 1 popcorn maker with the bonding missing totally!

 

[Darkwood]

When supplying something into our market it has to meet the standards under which it is designed where you find issues when PA-Testing its more often than not been tampered with, 2nd hand or very old and not to modern standards in which case you will do the necessary 'FAIL'! if need be but yes know what your on about ive seen some beauties in my time ... and i hate crap been brought in from abroad that has never even seen a regulation let alone safety standards.

 

[Tiny Spark]

When supplying something into our market it has to meet the standards under which it is designed where you find issues when PA-Testing its more often than not been tampered with, 2nd hand or very old and not to modern standards in which case you will do the necessary 'FAIL'! if need be but yes know what your on about ive seen some beauties in my time ... and i hate crap been brought in from abroad that has never even seen a regulation let alone safety standards.

Well in the instance of the popcorn maker the whole site seemed to have a total disregard for safety so ime not really surprised that this thing was probably brought in from china with a exec on a business trip.

 

[Badged01]

.... with manufacturer supplied .... 16amp plug ....

Missed the debate but to throw in my 2 pence worth. Without reading the manufacturers instructions to confirm, isnt the fact that the manufacturer has fitted a 16A plug implying a max 16A circuit to be connected to? Taking 1.5mm multicore having a max rating of 22A?

 

[bigspark17]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

 

[Darkwood]

Missed the debate but to throw in my 2 pence worth. Without reading the manufacturers instructions to confirm, isnt the fact that the manufacturer has fitted a 16A plug implying a max 16A circuit to be connected to? Taking 1.5mm multicore having a max rating of 22A?

where do you get 22 amps from.... and to note specified cables are rated differently. The manufacturers have to abide by their own standards if they fit a 16amp plug on as it dosnt have fusing they will need to ensure protection within their equipment they cant rely on the installation it is plugged into so my posts hold ground.

 

[Darkwood]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

when a manufacturers instructions state a 16amp supply its a supply requirement that that circuit can deliver 16amps not that is protected by a 16amp fuse.... again their equipment falls under their own BS standards so stop applying it to equipment plugged into a circuit .. read the full thread this has been covered.

 

[Rockingit]

You still haven't told us Tels answer!...........

 

[telectrix]

ok,m i'll come clean. my answer was preferably to fit a 16A socket on a 16A or 20A type C breaker ( as the jet wash incorporates a motor), or alternatively, class it as a fixed load and omit OCP and firt a 32A plug temporarily. as darkwood pointed out, the omission of OCP should only apply to fixed-wierd equipment.

 

[Badged01]

....to abide by their own standards if they fit a 16amp plug .....

Taking on board your points, the only other thought I would have is that does fitting another plug invalidate the manuf guarantee on the equipment? Part of their 'protective' measure could be around only using a 16A plug it limits the loading?

 

[Tiny Spark]

the omission of OCP should only apply to fixed-wierd equipment.

Right think I need to get something cleared up as you are thinking the same as I was.
The reg quoted by darkwood states "With ref' to 430.1 note 4 which states any flexible cables connecting equipment by plugs and sockets to a fixed installation are outside the scope of the BS 7671"

Now reading the quote originally I was thinking the jet wash was part of a fixed install, However re-reading it the "connecting" part would suggest to me that the installation is fixed however the appliance does not has to be?

All this aside though I think everyone is in agreement that we would swap the 32A socket for a 16A socket and down rate the breaker.
Thats what I would do anyways LOL

 

[D Skelton]

Sorry, I'm a bit hung over, don't really know what's going on?! did I get it right or wrong DW?

 

[7029 dave]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

All the way on this.

 

[Darkwood]

I have a kip and my thread goes haywire lol...

Lets straighten a few things out here..

Their are alternative methods/solutions to this problem i.e. derating the socket and mcb been one of them, what the aim of the thread was trying to show is that when something is plugged into a circuit it often gets dragged into the same rules that chapter 43 makes applicable to protection against overcurrent. I have simply hi-lighted the clause that omits you from applying chapter 43 to the flex and plug of a jet wash in my example and because it was supplied by the manufacturer with an industrial plug top on it it is then within the standards of the jet wash design to be protected from overcurrent either by been a fixed load or having its own overload protection.

This dosn't apply to if you have a fuse in the plug top as this complicates things and wasn't going down that road in this thread.
Also i did already mention if manufacturers instructions state the plug max size plug then this also over-rules the theme of this thread, this is not to be confused with the manufacturers instructions saying the equipment requires a 16amp supply as this is expressing the design load the equipment runs on not that it must be fitted to a 16amp system.

In reflection of all this spending a fiver iin materials changing the plug top would be the best option as oppose to changing/wiring outlets with derated mcb's as in my set-up it wasn't needed

Basically the front end OCPD of a circuit is not what is relied on by the manufacturers of equipment and a 16amp outlet can be set up in a ring main fashion be it 230v or 400v, its the design and nature of the equipment that stops overcurrent situes from occurring.

I think my thread has proved its point that some insist on extending the rules of the BS7671 to the plugged equipment even though it has a specific note in the regs to express they are excluded mainly because they have their own codes of practice to ensure they are overload protected.

So yes you can up-rate the plug leaving the flex the same size as it was when it had the 16amp plug on it as the flex is chosen for max current the equipment will draw, this is why fridges have small flex 0.75 usually but ask for a 13amp fuse .... now surely the 32 amp ocpd and the 13amp plug fuse are greater ccc than the flex to the fridge?