The holy grail of BS7671 amendment 3 plastic vs metal c/u's

[baldsparkies]

Consumer units compliant with amendment 3 have to pass some kind of glow test to BSEN61439-3

I like many have seen and read information suggesting that all domestic consumer units will shortly need to be installed constructed of steel rather than plastic as a result of this new wonder ruling.

It would appear that this is not the case.
And looks like another red herring that comes to light every time those bored people sitting around a table want to create some extra cash.

Once again its down to us sparks to try and pick the wood from the trees, so I thought this link might help clear some of the only metal clad rumours.

http://www.doepke.co.uk/catalogue/Cat-pdf/conunits.pdf

 

[netblindpaul]

You let me right down Paul!!!

I was sitting on a bet and now I've lost!

'How long will it take NBP to jump all over this thread?' lol

I said no longer than five minutes, and it's been two days?!? WTF man?!? You're losing your edge! Old age must suck

Sorry Damien,

I am flat out busy, with work, and I have IT problems in the business to sort out.
I ain't paying anyone to do them as I take that sort of work in!!!

As I let you down, you'll just have to buy me a beer, or at least a coffee if we meet up at an Elex show.

 

[D Skelton]

Sorry Damien,

I am flat out busy, with work, and I have IT problems in the business to sort out.
I ain't paying anyone to do them as I take that sort of work in!!!

As I let you down, you'll just have to buy me a beer, or at least a coffee if we meet up at an Elex show.

Happy to buddy

 

[netblindpaul]

I just asked an expert (professor of combustion engineering, course leader of a fire safety course for that taught have the countries fire safety officers for 3 decades / my dad), and in his opinion anything that was fire resistant to 960 degrees would meet the requirement of not being readily combustible.

Any manufacturers reading this who need to obtain an expert opinion on that feel free to get in touch.

That would presumably be why the regulations state 'or not readily combustible' as opposed to simply 'not combustible' which would have implied steel only.

The regulations quite rightly shouldn't specify any specific method or technique, as that would preclude any others that would have been equally viable but weren't specifically mentioned in the regulations.

Now I am not a fire specialist, however, I am an Engineer, and I do have a good knowledge of materials and polymers.

Hence one of the reasons I "went off on a one".

I strongly agree with your Dad.

Plus I believe that JPEL/64 have overstepped the mark when it comes to the remit of an installation standard.

There are many "not readily combustible" polymer materials.

Now, I cannot believe that the "scams" who did the testing on the CU's to come to the conclusion that "steel" was the material of choice, did these tests on CU's manufactured to materials compliant with the requirements of 61439-3.

 

[Gavin A]

I'd guarantee the scams know nothing about this, and doubt they did any testing, they'll just make it up as they go along until put right on it.

It's good to have a few professors to call on to call anyone's bluff who attempts to force you into doing something in a certain way for no good reason, especially when you know that Ofgem send their staff on the CPD course they lead to pretty much learn what they should be doing ,and HSE used to send all their inspectors on their courses, but stopped a few years back to save costs.... now they just have clueless inspectors.

As my dad pointed out, the main combustable material in a consumer unit is the insulation and sheaths of the cables, which are only rated as non-combustible up to their max rated operating temperatures (or a little above), then the MCB's themselves. Not a lot of point worrying about the casing if the cables and MCB's have caught light anyway as you've got a fire regardless.... unless they're on about making the unit itself into a fully fireproof, fire sealed unit to contain the fire in and extinguish it, but afaik that's not what they're taking about.

Worth bearing in mind the autoignition temperature of aluminium is 760 degrees, so any aluminium cables or ferules etc would catch fire prior to the 960 degree fire rated plastic.

 

[Ib≤In≤Iz]

Lol you could help us get our own back. If you have the last GN3 you could tell us if we need to change ours if the changes are significant. No breaches there I wouldn't think. Thanking you in advance , Another milked........................:smile5:

We will find out soon, but I'm guessing the changes to GN3 will be updated maximum Zs values and other forms.

Will be concrete C/U's in the 18th lol

 

[ruston]

They will be in the other two so at my time of life I will maybe skip buying the three , if I get any at all.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Ib≤In≤Iz]

Have recieved bs7671 amd 3 today.

New regulation 421.1.201 requires that within domestic (household) premisis, consumer units & similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 & shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustable material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustable material & complying with Regulation 132.12

 

[TAZ]

Does anyone have any cost comparisons with the new consumer units coming on to the market compared to a good quality plastic CU. Is this just the tip of the iceberg, is everything electrical installed under the stairs or in an escape route going to have to be non combustable. Any enclosure/cabinet will have to have some kind of door closure/interlock otherwise it defeats the object. If it is the case that most consumer unit fires are caused by loose connections as a result of poor workmanship you can't blame the product. Quite how you firestop the cable entries i would very much like to know?

 

[baldsparkies]

Just ordered one of these cheap from china. I'm ready for the 18th lads.

http://image.china-ogpe.com/pimage/...n_and_chemical_proof_clothing_Product1154.jpg

 

[D Skelton]

Does AMD 3 go further to define 'non-combustable'?

Let's face it, steel burns when it gets hot enough!

Sounds just like more ambiguity from the people in the 'know'.

 

[Octopus]

Does AMD 3 go further to define 'non-combustable'?

Let's face it, steel burns when it gets hot enough!

Sounds just like more ambiguity from the people in the 'know'.

I am really tempted to send my BRB off to the Plain English Society to see what they make of it!

 

[Ib≤In≤Iz]

Does AMD 3 go further to define 'non-combustable'?

Let's face it, steel burns when it gets hot enough!

Sounds just like more ambiguity from the people in the 'know'.

It does say:

NOTE 1: Ferrous metal, e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-combustable material.

NOTE 2: The implementation date for this regulation is the 1st January 2016, but does not preclude compliance with the regualation prior to that date.

 

[Gavin A]

Have recieved bs7671 amd 3 today.

New regulation 421.1.201 requires that within domestic (household) premisis, consumer units & similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 & shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustable material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustable material & complying with Regulation 132.12

just 'non-combustable'?

that's bad. What's the point in that then?

 

[Octopus]

Have recieved bs7671 amd 3 today.

New regulation 421.1.201 requires that within domestic (household) premisis, consumer units & similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 & shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustable material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustable material & complying with Regulation 132.12

So the insulated versions will still be onsale for commercial & cowboys!

 

[baldsparkies]

So the insulated versions will still be onsale for commercial & cowboys!

See what's happening Murdoch.
Suddenly, and because of a few pen pushers.
Thousands of perfectly good C/U installs have been converted into the work of cowboys.
Before date x compliant professional work after date x the work of cowboys !!!