Thermodynamic Test results - Not good

[Gavin A]

Check the Irish and ex pat Portugese Forums.

Loads and loads of issues, problems, lack of trust in product, lack of reliable data peoples electricity bills going up etc etc.
Too many to list .....

Flat plate solar collector v Thermodynamic solar collector - boards.ie

News: Thermodynamic solar/anytime panels - boards.ie

Beware of Thermodynamic Panels ? | Silver Spray


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I read about 25 pages of various threads and about the only complaint seemed to be one with energy use so far off the scale that there must have been something seriously wrong with the installation.

On the other hand there seem to be several well satisfied customers including a couple who've been posting real world electricity consumption figures, with over a years worth of data from Ireland at this link showing weekly electricity consumption varying from 17-23kWh over most of the year, peaking at 33kWh for a single week listed as being below zero for 5 nights. I think that data is for a house of 4 people, with the hot water temperature set to 55 degrees.

I have two friends at work who have installed the thermodynamic system. One was installed about four weeks ago. The other was installed about nine weeks ago. He has got his bi monthly electricity bill. He says these are rough figures, i think it was an estimated bill aswell. His average bill is usually about 150 and this bill was 176. I know we cant judge anything by this. I am trying to encourage him to buy a watt meter.

that'd be a EUR26 rise in electricity bill over a 9 week period = ~EUR2.90 a week, which seems a lot different to your £10 a week figure.

and a few more quotes from the threads linked to

Attached is the latest data for the system.
As everyone knows the weather has been very cold all through March and April and now May isn't much better.
No complaints from any of the family so far and happy with the ESB bill.

Well, we have the panels installed a week now and so far we are delighted with them.

The report quotes an “Energie” thermodynamic system consuming 4.1 kWh of electricity to heat 250 litres of water from 10°C to 55°C with 15°C ambient temp. The 2.7 COP is “no better, financially or environmentally, than a modern gas boiler).

a COP of 2.7 for heating water to 55 degrees with ambient air temperature of 15degC is at least on par with decent quality ashp. Using data from panasonic ASHP tables, that should be improved by about 0.3 to a COP of 3.0 ish if the temperature of the tank was lowered to 50 degrees.

I also like this bit at the end of the silver spray article

So if Thermodynamic panels can have a good chunk of their winter electricity from the PV panels, they could still be the best solution.

let's just do a quick comparison between an all electric heated situation with solar water heating vs a retrofit thremodynamic system...

60% solar water heating
40% electricity at COP of 1:!
= 40% of electrical input to annual heat generated, equivalent to an annual performance COP of 2.5 (excluding electricity used to power pumps etc)

100% thermodynamic would therefore need to have an average COP of 2.5 through the year to work out better than SWH + immersion - as an average across the year that looks about achievable just based on standard ASHP type COPs alone, add in the solar gain though and it should raise that average COP significantly.

Add in solar PV and the situation changes dramatically as the immersion would largely be drawing power when no sun was available, whereas the thermodynamic system would largely be drawing solar PV generated electricity that would otherwise be exported throughout the year.

 

[Gavin A]

ps there was also a complaint on there about a badly performing ground source heat pump install that was costing a fortune to run, diagnosed as being down to a poor installation method running a buffer tank at 55 degrees then running the heating off that.

so being an MCS certified technology is obviously no guarantee of their not being complaints about badly installed systems underperforming.

There was some interesting analysis from a refrigeration engineer querying how well the compressors would deal with the varying input and output temperatures and what the impact would be on lifespan. In the entire threads that was about the only actual genuine issue I picked up on that could really be seen as calling the technology itself into question, I suppose it's a bit early to tell how much of an issue this will be, but as he was more concerned about the high end panel temperatures, I'd say that the fact these systems have been used the longest in Portugal should count in their favor on that point.

 

[SilverSpray]

I'm the chap behind the Silver Spray web site.
I've been following / researching Themodynamic Panels for about 2 years.
My blog site has lots of posts about them. Most are positive, and my conclusion is that I am going to install them on my rebuild project.

 

[Worcester]

well they are ripping people off simple as, takes no more than a day to install, fgas engineer to regulate the panel side, and a standard plumber to pipe the cylinder up. radial circuit to feed the immersion probes and thats it, no mcs no bull crap that you have to do with pv. installer can still walk away with £1000 profit for a days work in and around a pv install is ok for us.

@wersolaruk - are you not installing unvented cylinders then? Are you upgrading the standard kit to meet G3?
It's difficult enough to replace a vented cylinder with an unvented one in a day let alone also install the panel and piping.. (it took a whole day on one job just to plumb in the D2...) - how big a team are you using to install in one day?

The Solar Thermal systems we install perform well (very well in some cases) and are a proven, tried and tested product which we can predict the output of reasonably accurately - using the right controls (boiler interlock) and stratified Solar Thermal cylinders with dedicated solar volumes makes a heap of difference.

I'm not against thermodynamics, the principle makes sense, however with no defrost cycle, and no UK CoP figures, it is very difficult to come up with any real output figures.

we're just trying to sort out metering arrangements, then will have a couple of test units up and running over the rest of this winter - have the units in the warehouse, but the metering arrangements I'd been wanting to use turn out to cost nearly as much as the thermodynamic kit itself.

Gavin - will you be able to do metering to the RHI requirements? or because the condensor is the DHW primary will you only be able to measure inputs (electrical) and outputs - consumed DHW? - these meters are cost effective: We are Heat Meter Suppliers in the UK. We Offer a Wide Range of Different Suppliers All Across Europe - DMS Limited offers a wide range of products. (tell Chris I sent you )

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin - will you be able to do metering to the RHI requirements? or because the condensor is the DHW primary will you only be able to measure inputs (electrical) and outputs - consumed DHW? - these meters are cost effective: We are Heat Meter Suppliers in the UK. We Offer a Wide Range of Different Suppliers All Across Europe - DMS Limited offers a wide range of products. (tell Chris I sent you )

cheers for the link, but I need to monitor electrical consumption at the same time, and was also wanting to monitor solar irradiance, air temperature and wind speed.

I have the ability to do most of that already, just not to be able to data log it all in the same data logger.

Well, I might have, just need to find time to try to cobble it all together, and it involves removing the kit from our solar water heating system.

Should have it installed in the next few weeks I hope, got to get it in for at least part of the winter.

 

[Worcester]

cheers for the link, but I need to monitor electrical consumption at the same time, and was also wanting to monitor solar irradiance, air temperature and wind speed.

I have the ability to do most of that already, just not to be able to data log it all in the same data logger.

Well, I might have, just need to find time to try to cobble it all together, and it involves removing the kit from our solar water heating system.

Should have it installed in the next few weeks I hope, got to get it in for at least part of the winter.

You could use the openenergymonitor.org system with emoncms for the display/logging function, (Emoncms ) and using emontx or various jeelabs/jeenode modules collect all the data ffrom the various sources, it would take a moment or two to work out the configuration, however most of the programming has been done, you just need to hook it up with the appropriate sensors. - Here's a raspberry pi hooked up to a maplin wireless weather station: Worcester Renewables - Live Weather Pages - Powered by Raspberry Pi logging data every 5 mins to the met office and wunderground.

 

[Gavin A]

You could use the openenergymonitor.org system with emoncms for the display/logging function, (Emoncms ) and using emontx or various jeelabs/jeenode modules collect all the data ffrom the various sources, it would take a moment or two to work out the configuration, however most of the programming has been done, you just need to hook it up with the appropriate sensors. - Here's a raspberry pi hooked up to a maplin wireless weather station: Worcester Renewables - Live Weather Pages - Powered by Raspberry Pi logging data every 5 mins to the met office and wunderground.

I understood about 90% of that, unfortunately I think the 10% I'm missing is probably the important bits.

will try reading it again when I've had some sleep I think.

 

[SolarCity]

I understood about 90% of that, unfortunately I think the 10% I'm missing is probably the important bits.

will try reading it again when I've had some sleep I think.

I think I only understand about 10% of this whole thread.

 

[Gavin A]

I think I only understand about 10% of this whole thread.

the important 10%?

 

[SolarCity]

the important 10%?

I'm guessing not. I understand most of the words used, but it's the order that they're placed in which is throwing me.

I really need to get to grips with these technologies.

 

[MCS Renewables]

It will of course be a lot easier to grasp this technology when the manufacturers of thermodynamics systems get independent test centres to verify the COP and other claims.

According to the Irish forum, these products have been available for around four years.

That is a VERY VERY long time to manufacture and sell equipment without getting it properly tested !

I would have thought that testing should have taken just over a year......... makes you wonder eh !

 

[v lowery]

If solar thermodynamic is such a great product why are the manufacturers not getting proper testing done ?

Why did the manufacturers of thermodynamic panels originally need to con the MCS into getting approval ?

Why are thermodynamic modules still not MCS approved ?

Why are customers of this product complaining about the running cost on various forums ?

I have had thermodynamics 3 years the 250ltr model and my electric bill is £500 a year to run compared to £140 gas bill I am going to court . it does not work in UK, I was told of £120 running cost per year, saving £20. to pay for its self 210 years never mind lost interest of £4200 cost.

 

[Worcester]

I have had thermodynamics 3 years the 250ltr model and my electric bill is £500 a year to run compared to £140 gas bill I am going to court . it does not work in UK, I was told of £120 running cost per year, saving £20. to pay for its self 210 years never mind lost interest of £4200 cost.

£500 is about the cost of running a 250 litre cylinder on the immersion heater for a year.

We wish you all the best with your court case - I presume that it'll be the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that you'll have to rely on as the Consumer Rights Act only came in in 2015.

Contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau also they may be able to help.

I hope you've got the financial illustration written down on their quote, else it'll be they said / I said and they'll wriggle out.

Which company was it that sold it to you and are they still trading?

And was it them that gave you the illustration or a commission based salesperson? - The salesperson may not have been employed by the installation company. - Did you also get an MCS certificate with it?

 

[v lowery]

6k plus, are u on drugs pal? stop twisting like a kid, mcs this mcs that. we install it for 3k all in. its clearly not the product its the people selling it, as for the performance of thermal its crap, and there are a a lot more complaints about thermal panels struggling to hit 18 degrees after september, one customer has reported with a thermal dynamics that performance dipped in early december buts still measured at 18 degrees on around the 10th of december which i think is great. had boiling hot water rest of the year.

£500 is about the cost of running a 250 litre cylinder on the immersion heater for a year.

We wish you all the best with your court case - I presume that it'll be the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that you'll have to rely on as the Consumer Rights Act only came in in 2015.

Contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau also they may be able to help.

I hope you've got the financial illustration written down on their quote, else it'll be they said / I said and they'll wriggle out.

Which company was it that sold it to you and are they still trading?

And was it them that gave you the illustration or a commission based salesperson? - The salesperson may not have been employed by the installation company. - Did you also get an MCS certificate with it?

 

[v lowery]

£500 is about the cost of running a 250 litre cylinder on the immersion heater for a year.

We wish you all the best with your court case - I presume that it'll be the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that you'll have to rely on as the Consumer Rights Act only came in in 2015.

Contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau also they may be able to help.

I hope you've got the financial illustration written down on their quote, else it'll be they said / I said and they'll wriggle out.

Which company was it that sold it to you and are they still trading?

And was it them that gave you the illustration or a commission based salesperson? - The salesperson may not have been employed by the installation company. - Did you also get an MCS certificate with it?

thanks for message. Energie who supply the goods to the company

£500 is about the cost of running a 250 litre cylinder on the immersion heater for a year.

We wish you all the best with your court case - I presume that it'll be the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that you'll have to rely on as the Consumer Rights Act only came in in 2015.

Contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau also they may be able to help.

I hope you've got the financial illustration written down on their quote, else it'll be they said / I said and they'll wriggle out.

Which company was it that sold it to you and are they still trading?

And was it them that gave you the illustration or a commission based salesperson? - The salesperson may not have been employed by the installation company. - Did you also get an MCS certificate with it?

thanks , filed court papers, run out on the 16th july " Dday . have emails and company papers, save £700/£800 a year off gas bill, pay for its self in 4 years " £1000 a year" get the MCS its in contract. have also a report from Tom of NARECDE its a test centre near me at Blythe NE England you can see there results, system tested BUT not at outside temps and not below 4 degrees, 6 hour run cycle and its running costs where still £250 a year , its "cold up north" 8 months of the year so this could easily hit £500 which is my electric rise, have energy bills before fitting and after. I only accepted this system because of the £7/9k tariff . company still trading and same sales people work for them. will keep you informed as to the case as this is the start of the opening of the flood gates. did a check of the cost for each customer £8k and £4200 crapped system £1000 to remove £13k x 10 clients £130,000 x 100 clients £1,300.000 this could finish them ?