Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

H

highspark

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood
 
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gdr7671 said:
which is NVQ3 and AMT2
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I know that, they are not compulsory qualifications though, so the straight out of an office and into the trade guy has been told he is competent with the C&G7671 and registered with NIC, elecsa napit etc will undoubtedly go for any further training that takes more time and money.
 
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We recently advertised (locally) for an INDUSTRIAL electrician with industrial and HV (for cranes) experience to work 3 - 4 days out of 5 in a INDUSTRIAL fabrication factory.

Out of the 100's of applications we received HALF were from lads that had mainly 2382 and ELA Domestic Installer.

They were even coming to our office thinking that we SHOULD give them the job as they were "Fully Qualified" and when questioned the only qualification or experience they thought they might be lacking was the 2391.

Good Luck..... I don't have HV experience so I wouldn't even go near the stuff.

(I'm not Electrical Trainee bashing just telling it how it was, and I'm sure there were 3 times as many that didn't apply because they know their limitations.)
 
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I may be starting to understand the new system that has appeared in the electrical industry

We have DI's who appear to be at varying levels qualification and competence having come through the quick career change system
Then we have paper qualified electricians who have spent years at college in their spare time but with little or no experience on the tools
After that there are the qualified sparks who served an apprenticeship and gained a lot of experience while learning the job and are still learning

While I appreciate that all industries are changing and evolving the electrical industry has had Part P forced on it on the grounds of improving safety in the domestic setting then it allows these quick training providers to offer sub standard miss sold training and is aided and abetted by the scheme providers registering every one and any one

I wonder how much lower the bar can go before it has to be raised to preserve life and property
 
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Adam W said:
they might want someone to arrive on time driving a bright sunburst yellow van, wearing a shirt and tie, do exactly what the customer wants without trying to sell add-ons such as bonding and rcd protection, then get the vacuum cleaner out and clean their house.
On this basis a customer might be more likely to recommend an 'electrician' who until 6 weeks ago spent 20 years working on the customer service desk in Marks & Spencer.
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"That's not any old electrician, that's a M&S electrician.:)
 
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Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.

People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.

If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?

I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.
 
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DNS1 said:
Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.
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Its nothing to do with experience on the tools. Its knowledge of electrical systems. Anyone can put a ring together. The measure of a spark is when the crap hits the fan and hes got to identify a fault. This is where the electrical trainee wouldn't have a chance.
 
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the only peace i find is that domestic work in most cases is easier imo than commercial and industrial if these Electrical Trainee came to the real world most would jack in i reckon
 
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alarm man said:
well a-they dont want too,b-and they dont know...
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There are a lot of customers who would like to know what kind of electrician they are employing, many of whom would rather employ a fully qualified one than one who's done a 5 week 'crash course'.
At one point nobody had heard of Part P, but now the likes of Matt Alright BBC Rogue Traders and that Dominic Littlewood keep telling everyone about it so the message is getting through; what I'm saying is the same could be done with a JIB card - remember the card lists your qualifications and the JIB don't give out cards like sweets.
 
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DNS1 said:
Whilst I understand where a lot of the anti-Electrical Trainee rants are coming from, I think it's a little unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, just because they've not done a full JIB apprenticeship.

People keep talking about the importance of being able to do the non-electrical side of the domestic business (jemmying boards, drilling joists/brickwork etc) but there are many ways to learn these skills.

If someone has spent 10 years as a builder, plumber etc, they're already going to know their way around the tools. In that instance, a domestic installer course and a lot of time with the books would likely be enough for them to go into a customers house and do domestic work. Why should they be prevented from this because they've not got a JIB card?

I'm going down the domestic installer route into the industry myself. I've got yonks of experience with domestic building work, plastering, plumbing etc and an engineering background.
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It's about proving it though. Someone with 10 years building experience might be good at lifting floorboards and filling in chases, but someone thinking they know it all is no reason to lower the bar. We get a lot of people coming on here thinking they're automatically an electrician because they've worked in IT for 20 years, but it doesn't work like that - they still have to take the exams and do their portfolio the same as everyone else. While some may excel at it, perhaps because they've had practice on their own home, some will realise that in fact they don't know it all, and it's better to find that out in a college than when you've gone out to represent the industry in a customer's house.
 
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Andy 7671 said:
Umm.. no sarcasm intended but is that not the JIB gold card..?
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There's plenty of guys on here with City and Guilds parts 1 and 2 (or A and B if you're an oldie like me)who would struggle to get a gold card.Don't make you a better sparky though.
 
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BillyHas said:
There's plenty of guys on here with City and Guilds parts 1 and 2 (or A and B if you're an oldie like me)who would struggle to get a gold card.Don't make you a better sparky though.
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would you not qualify for a gold card under the jib grandfather rights scheme
 
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UNG said:
I may be starting to understand the new system that has appeared in the electrical industry.....
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I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification.

To me the whole UK qualification system reminds me of calculus. I sat through weeks of it in class and it all went over my head, I was getting despondent and depressed at not understanding, then one day, for no particular reason the fog just cleared and it all made perfect sense. With the part p thing though the fog is being persistent still and showing no signs of clearing just yet.
 
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Marvo said:
I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification
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There's a qualification called the EAL Domestic Installer's Certificate which purports to teach people the standards and expectations of the building reg Part P. Idiots then decided to tell people they were part p qualified and the whole thing mushroomed from there Marvo. Fact of the matter is the qual is pretty much worthless to a proper spark.
 
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Marvo said:
I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification.

To me the whole UK qualification system reminds me of calculus. I sat through weeks of it in class and it all went over my head, I was getting despondent and depressed at not understanding, then one day, for no particular reason the fog just cleared and it all made perfect sense. With the part p thing though the fog is being persistent still and showing no signs of clearing just yet.
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...although both show a likelihood of tending towards infinity !
 
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trev1 said:
There's a qualification called the EAL Domestic Installer's Certificate which purports to teach people the standards and expectations of the building reg Part P. Idiots then decided to tell people they were part p qualified and the whole thing mushroomed from there Marvo. Fact of the matter is the qual is pretty much worthless to a proper spark.
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But NOT worthless to these training centres, who probably charge a couple of hundred quid for that bit of worthless paper... lol!!
 
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I know what you all mean about incompetent unqualified people being a danger, but i'm a "Domestic Installer" and i've worked alongside a number of "Fully Qualified" electricians and some of their work is shocking (no pun intended). Some don't even bother to test and just make the results up. On one job that I was helping out a fully qualified electrician finish wiring a new annex, they weren't even going to test before energising the new installation, I insisted that some tests should be done only to find out there was no earth on the house or the new annex!

My point is, just because someone is "fully qualified" it doesn't necessarily mean they are going to do a better job than a Domestic Installer.
 
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wattsy said:
I know what you all mean about incompetent unqualified people being a danger, but i'm a "Domestic Installer" and i've worked alongside a number of "Fully Qualified" electricians and some of their work is shocking (no pun intended). Some don't even bother to test and just make the results up. On one job that I was helping out a fully qualified electrician finish wiring a new annex, they weren't even going to test before energising the new installation, I insisted that some tests should be done only to find out there was no earth on the house or the new annex! My point is, just because someone is "fully qualified" it doesn't necessarily mean they are going to do a better job than a Domestic Installer.
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A domestic installer is a chancer though. He/she isn't experienced enough to have the name "ELECTRICIAN" branded across their vans. The problem I am talking about is that customers cannot differenciate between fully qualified and a chancer and all domestic Electrical Trainee are chancers! My wholesaler told me someone came in and asked for a 5.5mm earth....to which he said what for? The nearest we do is 6mm...but why do you need it. He said for the main earth. He said what? Chancer said well I've just done the adiabetic equation and I need a 5.5mm....Wholesaler said well what size is your bonding...to which he said 10mm....he was the laughing stock of the shop and the wholesaler was telling everyone. Inexperience, not a clue rubbish from someone trying to make people think he knows what he is doing. The blokes driving round in a sign written van with a scheme splashed all over it...incompetent twerp isn't the word. The same bloke was putting 4mm twin and earth radials in a house about 25m2.....just following the regs!
 
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I take most of these quotes of older fully qualified electricians acting like beginners or chancers with a large pinch of salt. There has always been, and probably always will be, a bad element of such bad qualified guys, but no-where like on the scale it must be for the Electrical Trainee DI element...

I honestly think it's just used as an argument in most cases to substantiate the numbty designation of being a Domestic Installer!!...
 
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highspark said:
A domestic installer is a chancer though. He/she isn't experienced enough to have the name "ELECTRICIAN" branded across their vans. The problem I am talking about is that customers cannot differenciate between fully qualified and a chancer and all domestic Electrical Trainee are chancers! My wholesaler told me someone came in and asked for a 5.5mm earth....to which he said what for? The nearest we do is 6mm...but why do you need it. He said for the main earth. He said what? Chancer said well I've just done the adiabetic equation and I need a 5.5mm....Wholesaler said well what size is your bonding...to which he said 10mm....he was the laughing stock of the shop and the wholesaler was telling everyone. Inexperience, not a clue rubbish from someone trying to make people think he knows what he is doing. The blokes driving round in a sign written van with a scheme splashed all over it...incompetent twerp isn't the word. The same bloke was putting 4mm twin and earth radials in a house about 25m2.....just following the regs!
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they are changing the logo for di's to use to stop confusion..
 
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My take on the whole thing is it was introduced for kitchen fitters and similar as a safer option to move sockets and make sure protection was in place etc. Unfortunately it has left a loophole for less experienced people to take work on that they, lets be honest, were not fully trained to do.
In a world of people losing jobs and re-training to put bread on the table (which i'm sure we would all do) or starting up on their own it is an easy way to get up the ladder. Its a shame the public are their guinea pigs and i'm sure they will learn in time but the regulations don't tell you how to do a job and no two are the same. It all started by an MP and i hope sometime soon the same MP has a Electrical Trainee turn up at his house real soon and all this them and us can come to an end.
 
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needasparks said:
My take on the whole thing is it was introduced for kitchen fitters and similar as a safer option to move sockets and make sure protection was in place etc. Unfortunately it has left a loophole for less experienced people to take work on that they, lets be honest, were not fully trained to do.
In a world of people losing jobs and re-training to put bread on the table (which i'm sure we would all do) or starting up on their own it is an easy way to get up the ladder. Its a shame the public are their guinea pigs and i'm sure they will learn in time but the regulations don't tell you how to do a job and no two are the same. It all started by an MP and i hope sometime soon the same MP has a Electrical Trainee turn up at his house real soon and all this them and us can come to an end.
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....er, but the MP it started with had a bereavement in the house as a result of dodgy workmanship.... don't wish anymore on them dude.
 
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I really think we need to find a way of distinguishing between the 5 week wonder people...

Big difference between someone who's never touched a screwdriver until he did the course, and a person with donkeys years of experience in other trades, or an engineering background, who does the 5 week course as it's the only way in.

It's really not fair to kick off about "domestic installers" like they're a lower form of life.

I'm new to the electrics game, but I can't do a 3 year apprenticeship. I can't afford to, I have a mortgage and bills to pay.

I'm doing a short course (not a £8k one, a "proper" one from a local place), but I'm also working my arse off with the books, I've got an engineering/maths background and have donkeys years of experience with plumbing/plastering/building work and plan to do everything to the very best of my ability and only when I feel confident to do it.

It's quite upsetting to have people talk about me like I'm scum of the earth because I'm not 16 years old and with the luxury of being able to do a full apprenticeship.

Of course there are people out there who are led astray by the bull**** from the "training providers" (give us £10k and you'll be god's gift to the sparky world), but there are also a hell of a lot of us who just want to do domestic work and earn an honest living.
 
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fair comment. i myself came into the trade from an engine beering background. it's the ex . office workers mainly that don't have a clue, even after passing a course. we can all write or talk a good job, but it takes experience to be able to do it right and in a reasonable time scale, good on you for knowing your limitations and doing what you feel competent with.
 
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Making off Pryo!!

now , i'm not too confident with that. i can do it, but slow. just hardly ever done any micc, most of my industrial work was SWA and in containment.
 
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Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"
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