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srl-8

Hi guys,

i have changed a fuse board today in a outbuilding/large shed (it has a kitchen and shower and lounge etc.. a )

It is a TT system with earth rod.

My ZE reading was 187 ohms - now the regs state I am ok upto 200, so I assumed this was ok.

All the R1 + R2 and insulation resistance came back normal.

When I carried out the ZS tests, the reading were very high, for example:

Shower circuit on a 40a MCB - 2.6 omhs !
Kitchen Ring on a 32a mcb - 2.7 omhs !

same for lounge and bedroom rings.

I have checked to regs and these figures are over the maximum allowed.


Any advice ???
 
That's what all the girls say, can't beat a bit of length.
 
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so why do we keep seeing these shallow rods ....all connected in series...as if thats gonna do owt..lol.....

Rods are available in a few lengths to suit a variety of applications, there could be cases where a rock shelf prevents good depth so multiple rods have to be used, not ideal but it does happen, you are also not just restricted to rods as an electrode...
 
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There's far more fiction here than there ever was in War & Peace, I back up my arguments with all available statistics, British Standards and years of experience installing perfectly safe TT installations that meet the requirements of those standards.

Of course, the requirements are guided minima and if anyone wants to fill up a garden with copper to slavishly attempt to attain Ra values akin to a TN system then go for it but at least ponder beforehand the futility and costs of the task!

So where's the fiction?? You back up your arguments with ''Statistics'' haha!!! Who's statistics?? have you never heard that old saying about Statistic's, it basically tell's you Never to trust statistic's and for very good reason. The very same figures, can be made to say anything the authour wants them to say, ....An that's a well proven ''Fact!!''

Are you really trying to convince me that a 1m rod with a Ra of 200ohms is and will remain safe for the duration of it's lifespan, even when the paralleled bonding pipes are replaced with plastic services?? Come on IQ pull the other leg, it's got bigger bells on!!

Now, no-one is saying you should slavishly attempt to obtain TN values from a TT system, or filling a garden with copper, that's twisting what i have said here, they are Your words trying to be clever, NOT mine!! What i will say is, in generally found garden British soils, i could in most circumstances achieve a below 10ohm Ra with a maximum of 2 twin rod positions. If that is filling a garden with copper, so be it ...lol!!
What i'm also saying is, Not even trying to improve, a crap Ra value with a deeper rod, or at a second location, to me doesn't say much for an electrician that's installing/creating a TT system. Also a bad Standard, is a bad Standard, whatever way you like to dress it!!

If you have, with your years of experience, installed TT systems that are anything like those that seem to be the norm these days in the UK, ie, a single 1m rod with an Ra of around the 200 ohm mark, i'm sorry, your fooling yourself big time, thinking that's perfectly safe!! That would only be safe as such, while a the prime protection RCD was functional... It sure ain't gonna be safe when it isn't functional!!!

The only way i would feel even half happy leaving such a TT system in place, is if the CU in question, had an up-front 100mA S type RCD and all the circuit protective devices were RCBO's. At least then you have 2 RCD devices covering your bum, unlikely that both will fail, but then again, it's not unheard of either...
 
You'd need some depth to get to TN values in most UK soils!

I'd take a 400 Ohm Ra reading on a 2.4M rod anytime rather than 50 Ohms on a 1M rod though, depth is indeed king!

E54 keeps mentioning this 1M rod as if that's all anyone here uses!


That's right, would you like to put any money on this one IQ, i've been looking at several well known wholesalers in the UK, and that is the ONLY length they stock, be they 3/8'' or 5/8'' !! I haven't seen one, that stocks 3/4'' rods of any length!!

So that's exactly what everyone is using, unless they are purchasing direct from people like Furse!!!
 
I have installed and inspected many small-medium TT systems in the south east UK over the 30+ years I have been in the trade.Most of those have utilised 1m rods.Off the top of my head I cant recall an Ra greater than about 250 ohms on an existing at any time of the year. Last year I did a temporary site hut install on the north downs...(chalk)...in the height of summer on very dry ground and got an Ra of around 350 ohms with a single rod. Linking two 1m rods got it down to around 120 ohms...more than acceptable.
Given that 30ma RCD protection was provided, in practice the 350 ohms Ra would have provided satisfactory earth fault protection even though it exceeded the UK recommended maximum.
No doubt E54 will be appalled and call me everything from incompetant to downright dangerous. But like IQ,I have never heard of an incident on a UK TT which could be attributed to a UK TT Ra which would have been prevented by an Ra of the level E54 advocates.
For that reason I am content to adhere to Bs 7671 requirements for TT systems,and have no doubts over the safety of such systems.
It is my belief that E54's posts on Ra values are misleading to those who seek advise on TT requirements...which is why I continue to open this particular can of worms.
 
Rods are available in a few lengths to suit a variety of applications, there could be cases where a rock shelf prevents good depth so multiple rods have to be used, not ideal but it does happen, you are also not just restricted to rods as an electrode...
i agree that there are other means of earthing (tt) than rods ...such as tape/s and/or plate/s....
 
That's right, would you like to put any money on this one IQ, i've been looking at several well known wholesalers in the UK, and that is the ONLY length they stock, be they 3/8'' or 5/8'' !! I haven't seen one, that stocks 3/4'' rods of any length!!

So that's exactly what everyone is using, unless they are purchasing direct from people like Furse!!!


Do they not also sell a coupler that fits the 1.2M rod giving at X2 the 2.4M that I mentioned a few posts back?
 
Haha, the last person i need to teach me how to get a TT system to protect an installation, or how to create a TT system is you!! If anyone is misleading anyone here on Ra values and stability it's those that advocate BS7671!! You open these can of worms, because you are satisfied with an inadequate system based on an inadequate section in the BS7671 that has been in need of revision for too long..

Frankly i don't give a dam what you are prepared to walk away from on a TT system, but instructing those that are inexperienced, to ignore sound advice to improve a crap Ra value based on what is a nonsense Ra value because you happen to be happy with it, beggars belief!! As i thought you use 1m rods like everyone else and even after all these years of experience ,still actually believe what you have installed is a good, stable and reliable TT system,. ....NO Comment!!!
 
Do they not also sell a coupler that fits the 1.2M rod giving at X2 the 2.4M that I mentioned a few posts back?

Come on now, and just how many actually buy those couplers or come to that, the second rod... NO need IQ, ...they only need 200 ohms ...and what's stability all about, when it's at home, do we really need it .... It rarely happens, and You know it doesn't!!!
 
Come on now, and just how many actually buy those couplers or come to that, the second rod... NO need IQ, ...they only need 200 ohms ...and what's stability all about, when it's at home, do we really need it .... It rarely happens, and You know it doesn't!!!

I would just ask one Q for all the people who believe the regs values are the end of... if we switch to I/R - would you walk away from a dwelling if the I/R was 2.0Mohm?

The regs values are the as a min safety values....
 
Come on now, and just how many actually buy those couplers or come to that, the second rod... NO need IQ, ...they only need 200 ohms ...and what's stability all about, when it's at home, do we really need it .... It rarely happens, and You know it doesn't!!!

I wish you'd been invited to the Guidance Note 3 Amendment panel that I attended, if you'd produced all the evidence and research to back up your argument (none) then we could have revised this lethal 200 Ohm figure and saved countless lives in the process.

Until then I'll just continue with my reckless adherence to all published guidance on the subject.
 
well iwouldn`t walk away as it stands now as the min. acceptable IR is 1 MEG...not 2.....

Ah yes as of 1st Jan.... but I was more trying to point out even at 2Meg so that would be 2x the min would you really be happy to walk away.... but the regs say you have a clear conscience?
 
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I would just ask one Q for all the people who believe the regs values are the end of... if we switch to I/R - would you walk away from a dwelling if the I/R was 2.0Mohm?

The regs values are the as a min safety values....

As above...1 meg...
On a new install I would not accept one...or two megs because from experience I would expect a new install be to be a lot higher.
On an existing install.(PIR?)...yes...because I know from experience that there are many,many perfectly sound existing installs with IR's circa 1-2 megs
which require no attention at all,and I wouldnt waste a clients money attempting to improve it.
I would also point out that under the 15th edition...(not that long ago)...the minimum was 0.5 megs.
 
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