what do these 380v wiring colours mean, I want to use with a 220v vfd. it may have had speed control

[speedystu]

Hello, I am a woodworker who has got a large old power feed, its 380v and i want someone to rewire to a 220v vfd for me, can someone please tell me what these old colour codes mean. I bought the machine in Scotland.I can't find any easy diagrams online.I think its a good few years old.Thank you!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

 

[speedystu]

It's sometimes a surprise just how safe fairground rides are overall. A report by the HSE a few years back found that people were statistically 12 times less likely to meet a serious accident riding the machines than while walking to the ground in the first place. And, that includes the numpties who force their safety bars open and climb out of their seats etc. If you discount those, it's safer still.

I can't get used to these big VFDs, they just don't go with the smell of burgers, candy floss and mown grass. Give me a 10hp 110V DC shunt motor, a faceplate starter and a Gardner 5LW rumbling gently in the background. I've got some video I shot 30 years ago at dusk, the whole gaff ablaze with traditional coloured filament lamps, packed with punters and throbbing to proper rock'n'roll. There's a magical moment as I'm focused on the ammeter on the old Lister switchboard watching it swing over and hearing the rack on the JP4 opening up as we pull away on 2nd stud. Extreme thrill stuff is all very well but it hasn't got the soul.

Good memories! What also was very cool was the robot donut machine. I said to her cool machine and she gave me a very strange look! I didn't ask her about motors

 

[marconi]

My analysis is attached - if you can decipher my drawings. U1, V1 and W1 coils are vertical between terminals and U2, V2 and W3 are diagonal.

The 'X' indicate the connections to be broken and the red lines indicate new connections to from the parallel delta.

To find the end of the diagonal coils, colour code the two wires to each upper terminal say red red, blue blue and yellow yellow so you know where they go to originally.

Then disconnect from the upper terminals so you have 6 free winding ends. Measure resistance as shown 1, then 2 and finally 3. Measurement 1 will be one coil resistance (R), 2 will be 2R and 3 with be infinity.

 

[Megawatt]

My analysis is attached - if you can decipher my drawings. U1, V1 and W1 coils are vertical between terminals and U2, V2 and W3 are diagonal.

The 'X' indicate the connections to be broken and the red lines indicate new connections to from the parallel delta.

To find the end of the diagonal coils, colour code the two wires to each upper terminal say red red, blue blue and yellow yellow so you know where they go to originally.

Then disconnect from the upper terminals so you have 6 free winding ends. Measure resistance as shown 1, then 2 and finally 3. Measurement 1 will be one coil resistance (R), 2 will be 2R and 3 with be infinity.

Yes I agree with Marconi, with what he said ??

 

[speedystu]

When i

With regards to the VSD failing if the windings do, some smaller cost effective VSD are not short circuit protected and will likely fail in the event of a short, I found this particularly on small models converting 1ph to 3ph, do not assume as is usual for VSD's that they are protected, I would confirm it before purchasing.

Thanks v much,very good point! if and when I get to the vfd purchasing I'll double check with you guys!some of the sellers are good to claim most things. Would be great to get it right first time

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I'm offline for a while and can't view the pics or reply in detail, but a quick q for Marconi: It's likely that the terminals with two leads are the corners, i.e. U1 = UA, U2 = UB etc. But what hard evidence do we have? If the other terminals are the corners, rearranging the leads as per your suggestion will make a crazy zig-zag winding that might look like a short circuit to the VFD.

 

[speedystu]

My analysis is attached - if you can decipher my drawings. U1, V1 and W1 coils are vertical between terminals and U2, V2 and W3 are diagonal.

The 'X' indicate the connections to be broken and the red lines indicate new connections to from the parallel delta.

To find the end of the diagonal coils, colour code the two wires to each upper terminal say red red, blue blue and yellow yellow so you know where they go to originally.

Then disconnect from the upper terminals so you have 6 free winding ends. Measure resistance as shown 1, then 2 and finally 3. Measurement 1 will be one coil resistance (R), 2 will be 2R and 3 with be infinity.

Thanks for this, i have studied some electrical diagrams before but I am struggling to understand completely, do you mind helping me through it.

can_i_focus_on_this_as_a_conclusion?

I have taken three screen shots to start with.

what doe this text say?
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I m standing aside here while you guys solve the problem btw.
Thanks all!

 

[marconi]

LN: I will have a think on what you have asked.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

My intention was to devise a simple test with a battery and DMM by which SpeedyStu could prove which terminals were which. Something on the lines of kicking a corner with the battery and watching the opposite winding for an impulse. Then repeating with adjacent windings in antiphase and checking that the pulse is much smaller.

Here's a thing... On a consequent pole winding, apart prom phasing, is there any difference between a corner and an edge? If the groups are at 60 deg, presumably not, i.e. magnetically it's just a regular hexagon. No time to think it through until later..

 

[marconi]

LN: My #24 and #27 make the assumption that that Dhalander is configured with 3 winding pairs viz U1 and U2, V1 and V2 and W1 and W2. I have assumed the notation used is that say U1 is the 'end' of winding U1 and U2 is the end of winding U2 etcetera.

I have assumed too that the motor wiring inside and underneath the terminal block has not been tinkered with so the labelled terminals have been used correctly for the nodes on the delta configuration.

It also shows the usual trios of colours brown, black grey for the three lines and then three different colours for star switching. This indicated to me a classical 6 pole double throw switch to select slow(series delta) or fast (parallel star) has been employed. Energisation supply 400V in for both speeds.

I then numbered the leads to each winding used the nomenclature v1 and v2 for the start and end of V1 and v3 and v4 for the start and end of V2.

I then considered the parallel star for high speed winding configuration and did a star winding to delta transformation ( - your idea for running at 230V in delta at high speed) taking care to move the starts and ends of windings in accord with the transformation.

I then looked at which starts and ends were unchanged and which were in need of cutting and remaking elsewhere.

With the information provided by the OP on the single lead to each of the lower terminals and two leads to the upper terminals I confirmed what I thought the winding connections to the terminal block was.

It was then a matter of identifying which of the two leads to each of the upper terminals needing reconnecting to the 'previous' winding and the 3 links from the bottom terminals to the top - I show all this in my #47.

So if the assumption is correct, an Ohmmeter enables the lead which needs to be rewired to the previous winding viz measurements 1, 2 and 3.

When rewired all resistance measurements L1-L2, L1-L3 and L2-L3 will be the same - and no shorts.

If one provides a step dc voltage to say L1-L2, and measures the kicks in voltage L2-L3 and L3-L1; they should be the same amplitude and the same polarity. One can repeat for a dc voltage step to L2-L3 and L3-L1. If all these kick measurements are are the same polarity and amplitude then the windings have been connected correctly.

To safeguard the motor on first energisation with the parallel delta winding configuration one would have to put some NTC thermistor inrush current limiters in series with the line feeds - these are cheap and easy to arrange.

And one would measure the line currents to check they are equal.
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The parallel star and parallel delta has 120 degree rotational symmetry between the 1 coils and the 2 coils.

The series delta and series star has 120 degree symmetry. If the rotation is 60 degrees one ends up with the same coil type between lines which methinks does not generate consequent poles.
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Will need to check up on these last two statements tomorrow - could be wrong.
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Anyway the reconfigured parallel delta is running in high speed as a conventional pole induction motor (as was the previous parallel star set up).

 

[marconi]

Another thing I just thought of is that if the parallel pairs of windings do not have their leads wired correctly (as I showed in my earlier posts) then when one applies a step dc voltage to them, the magnetic fields of these winding pairs are cancelled out; there will be no or only a small transformer effect - low amplitude kick in both of the other winding pairs between the remaining line pairs.

Here is a nice description of the dc method for identifying the winding ends (or checking the re-jigged connections) which could be done safely by the OP with a 1.5V battery and multimeter set to dc volts - see method 2.

Polarity Test of Three Phase Induction Motor: Electrical Machines - https://electengmaterials.com/polarity-test-of-three-phase-induction-motor/

We'd need to amplify it as a step-by-step guide for the OP.

 

[marconi]

Follow the link then move forward one slide:


https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8qAiVaBWpWMArM8unIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyNmp2NW0yBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM3MWM3NjM3ZjM2ZTc5MzNjYjQ4MDI0MWFlYTdmNTkyZgRncG9zAzQEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Dahlander+Windings&fr=yhs-mozilla-002&hsimp=yhs-002&hspart=mozilla&tab=organic&ri=4&w=450&h=452&imgurl=img.photobucket.com/albums/v390/peterh5322/Dahlander_Winding.jpg&rurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/transformer-method-1ph-3ph-148670/&size=23.8KB&name=is+what+we+call+a+"consequent+pole"+motor.&p=Dahlander+Windings&oid=71c7637f36e7933cb480241aea7f592f&fr2=&fr=yhs-mozilla-002&tt=is+what+we+call+a+"consequent+pole"+motor.&b=0&ni=21&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=139bts6bi&sigb=1402442pc

This 'French' Dahlander motor has corresponding winding wiring to the OP's 'German' motor. Note that the terminal block is upside down to the OP's one.

The series delta Dahlander 'corner nodes' are connected to U1, V1 and U2 and the edge nodes to U2, V2 and W2. This supports my assumption when we link U1 to UA and U2 to UB etcetera. For parallel star the U1, V1 and W1 are connected together in the French and also for the German motor.

See also Diagram DD3 in:

https://www.fantech.com.au/images/PDF/Catalogue/wiringdiagrams.pdf

I reckon the terminal connection schemas on the inside of the cover (see #12) DO NOT apply to this Dahlander motor - they apply for a conventional pole star-delta motor.

 

[speedystu]

Follow the link then move forward one slide:


https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8qAiVaBWpWMArM8unIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyNmp2NW0yBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM3MWM3NjM3ZjM2ZTc5MzNjYjQ4MDI0MWFlYTdmNTkyZgRncG9zAzQEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Dahlander+Windings&fr=yhs-mozilla-002&hsimp=yhs-002&hspart=mozilla&tab=organic&ri=4&w=450&h=452&imgurl=img.photobucket.com/albums/v390/peterh5322/Dahlander_Winding.jpg&rurl=http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/transformer-method-1ph-3ph-148670/&size=23.8KB&name=is+what+we+call+a+"consequent+pole"+motor.&p=Dahlander+Windings&oid=71c7637f36e7933cb480241aea7f592f&fr2=&fr=yhs-mozilla-002&tt=is+what+we+call+a+"consequent+pole"+motor.&b=0&ni=21&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=139bts6bi&sigb=1402442pc

This 'French' Dahlander motor has corresponding winding wiring to the OP's 'German' motor. Note that the terminal block is upside down to the OP's one.

The series delta Dahlander 'corner nodes' are connected to U1, V1 and U2 and the edge nodes to U2, V2 and W2. This supports my assumption when we link U1 to UA and U2 to UB etcetera. For parallel star the U1, V1 and W1 are connected together in the French and also for the German motor.

See also Diagram DD3 in:

https://www.fantech.com.au/images/PDF/Catalogue/wiringdiagrams.pdf

I reckon the terminal connection schemas on the inside of the cover (see #12) DO NOT apply to this Dahlander motor - they apply for a conventional pole star-delta motor.

Happy new year all and best of luck and health for 2020, hope its off to a good start.
Thanks for all your amazing input thus far.
I received the worlds worst multimeter (my fault), i went too cheap, the continuity test did not even have a buzzer. I will replace soon.

I have looked at DD3, is this a definite answer to the problem or will it need to be opened up and run tests?

 

[marconi]

Using a multimeter with a low resistance (0-200 Ohms) range I reckon one can confirm your motor has its windings connected as in DD3 using the method I show in my #47 bottom right. It requires a little bit of care to label the pairs of winding leads as they arrive at the terminals WA, VA, UA where the blue, green and orange wires connect ( - see your #12 image of the motor terminal block) - before disconnecting them so the ends are free as I show in my drawing #47 bottom right.

Then it is a matter of copying my drawing bottom right of #47, and annotating it with the winding names (vertical are W1, U1, V1 and diagonal are W2, U2, V2) and then with the labels for the winding ends so you know what lead goes to which winding.

Next, one has to terminate these leads with some ring crimp connectors and rewire them as I show in #47 bottom left.

Remove the blue, green and orange wires. Make up three jumpers with a ring crimp on each end of them to make the connections between the terminals which before the W2, V2 and U2 coils were connected across - see #47 bottom left.

L1, L2 and L3 are supplied by the brown, grey and black as now.

Then test the resistance L1-L2, L2-L3 and L1-L3; they should all be the same.

 

[speedystu]

Using a multimeter with a low resistance (0-200 Ohms) range I reckon one can confirm your motor has its windings connected as in DD3 using the method I show in my #47 bottom right. It requires a little bit of care to label the pairs of winding leads as they arrive at the terminals WA, VA, UA where the blue, green and orange wires connect ( - see your #12 image of the motor terminal block) - before disconnecting them so the ends are free as I show in my drawing #47 bottom right.

Then it is a matter of copying my drawing bottom right of #47, and annotating it with the winding names (vertical are W1, U1, V1 and diagonal are W2, U2, V2) and then with the labels for the winding ends so you know what lead goes to which winding.

Next, one has to terminate these leads with some ring crimp connectors and rewire them as I show in #47 bottom left.

Remove the blue, green and orange wires. Make up three jumpers with a ring crimp on each end of them to make the connections between the terminals which before the W2, V2 and U2 coils were connected across - see #47 bottom left.

L1, L2 and L3 are supplied by the brown, grey and black as now.

Then test the resistance L1-L2, L2-L3 and L1-L3; they should all be the same.

Thank you Marconi and everyone else, to conclude with this info, I contacted a motor rewind company in Dublin. They will look at it for me and tell me if it is saveable and if they can pair with an inverter/vfd (using your info) and I will ask them if it is better(safer and more economical) to get a newer single phase motor, i just need it to work properly, I dont trust myself! I have really enjoyed learning about motors with you guys, I have a huge appreciation for your efforts.

one final question related to this, i will be mounting the motor and powerfeed to a steel frame workbench, with bare steel legs touching concrete, how should i earth it to make sure its safe to use?

 

[Simon47]

Earth it the same as you would any other metal cased appliance - just make sure the earth connection in the mains lead and plug is sound. At the equipment end, make sure each item with mains connection has it's case earthed.