Working on live distribution boards?

[Davehaywire]

Can anyone tell me if I'm asked to work on a live db be it TP or SP lv ,by my employer,as I have done for many many years in cases where the board cannot be isolated for various reasons.
if for some reason I'm electrocuted and I have a hot works permit or not, should my employers insurance cover me for injury,death,loss of work, or should I have my own insurance.
can you get insurance for hot works or not?
i have wondered about this for a while, I have a family now, so if for some reason the worst scenario happens,what happens? What can I or my employer do to cover for this?
can any1 enlighten me

 

[Knobhead]

It's Saturday morning Damian. Time to sober up.

 

[D Skelton]

Haha, c'mon Tony, you've read my previous posts on this thread, you know where I stand. If it's gotta be done it's gotta be done, but on your head be it! Just make sure you're safe and don't moan if you end up dead

 

[ipf]

Haha, c'mon Tony, you've read my previous posts on this thread, you know where I stand. If it's gotta be done it's gotta be done, but on your head be it! Just make sure you're safe and don't moan if you end up dead

Good moaning...........just got in.

 

[Gavin A]

Yes, you could! When determining whether something is unavoidable or not various other statutory documents are explicit in their explanation that economic reasons alone are not sufficient.

You make a choice, that is on you.

what statutory documents state that?

reasonable in UK law incorporates the economic impact of the situation.

in this situation a balance would have to be struck between the risk vs the economic impact.

If the risk can be mitigated down to a level that's deemed to be acceptable compared to the economic impact of the alternative, then it's perfectly acceptable legally for trained competent electricians to work live, just as it is for trained experienced workers to carry out short duration work from ladders.

Your statements are no different from the complete rubbish spouted by some H&S idiots about ladders being banned from being used. It may be company policy in some companies (potentially because they've judged that the economic impact isn't high enough to justify the risk level), but it's not what the law that's been quoted says.

the main way that people will fall down with this legally would be the lack of risk assessment, method statement, etc.

 

[Gavin A]

ie. working live on the sly without having proper risk assessments, method statements etc in place would be illegal and you'd not have a leg to stand on in court if HSE pulled you on it.

This is completely different to having those policies and procedures in place (and being followed) to authorise live working where it would be unreasonable to work dead, where the working situation has been made reasonably safe and is being carried out by someone who is competent to work in that manner.

Not that anyone who doesn't feel competent to work live in any given situation (as in hasn't been specifically trained in safe working practices for working live in those situations) should work live in that situation.

 

[D Skelton]

reasonable in UK law incorporates the economic impact of the situation.

in this situation a balance would have to be struck between the risk vs the economic impact.

I said economic impact alone.

Working live, even safely carries significant risks. If the only factor to consider is money, then live working shall never be permitted. If by the loss of money people start to suffer, ie a company goes out of business, people lose jobs, people can't provide for their families, then it ceases to become just economic doesn't it.

If you have to shut down a factory for half a day which results in a few thousand pounds, maybe even tens of thousands of pounds, but doesn't actually affect anyone personally then live working shouldn't be permitted (that's not to say that it doesn't happen).

If however you need to join a new underground supply cable to an existing live one suppying power to 100 homes, some of which might have residents that rely on electricity for their own health and/or safety, then live working is obviously going to be permitted.

 

[D Skelton]

Oh, and I might add, I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I also don't believed I have even taken a specific 'side' if you will. Just pointed out where the law stands and discussed the pros and cons of abiding by it to th letter. But what I am not going to put up with is another 'pick holes in everything damian says just for the hell of it' threads!

You wanna pick holes, find someone else coz I'm not in the bloody mood!

 

[ian.settle1]

How do you think we test on 11KV. Non of that lot is going to save you if it goes wrong.

What's wrong with the good old volt stick? LOL!!

 

[plugsandsparks]

Oh, and I might add, I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I also don't believed I have even taken a specific 'side' if you will. Just pointed out where the law stands and discussed the pros and cons of abiding by it to th letter. But what I am not going to put up with is another 'pick holes in everything damian says just for the hell of it' threads!

You wanna pick holes, find someone else coz I'm not in the bloody mood!

I have noticed a marked change in practice from when I did my time in the 80s, I suppose because I left the industry and then came back I have noticed a couple of things which these threads aloed to. Sparkies of the same age today are not as well trained or confident working live, their employers won't allow it. One example of a couple of years ago, I was doing some testing (live) of some 1000A panel boards and I reported they were full of dust and the earth was missing. Reported to chief electrical eng who called his sparkies to hoover out the board and put a N-E link in place. The board was large with plenty of space. The chief wanted panel off and it was in a sub with no windows. I said that means you will have no light and no power for the hoover. 2 hours later the sparkies rig up a long extension from another source and break out the torches. As this job was holding up my testing I was getting twitchy and said guys i'll do it live as it was a doddle. But the answer was no. So this simple task cost 20 times what it would have taken me to do. I realised then - times had changed, BTW the chief was older than me and came from NCB so it was not him being ----, he had moved with the times and I WAS the dinosaur.

 

[Engineer54]

Oh, and I might add, I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I also don't believed I have even taken a specific 'side' if you will. Just pointed out where the law stands and discussed the pros and cons of abiding by it to th letter. But what I am not going to put up with is another 'pick holes in everything damian says just for the hell of it' threads!

You wanna pick holes, find someone else coz I'm not in the bloody mood!

Think we've all enjoyed the discussion, i don't see that anyone's picking holes for the sake of it, i see it, more of giving a different viewpoint in specific areas that's been brought up...

It's like you're comment on shutting down a factory for half a day, ...depending on what plant on our complex had to be shut down, you wouldn't have been talking about tens of thousands, you'd be looking at the hundreds of thousands, that being in just the lost production. Then the lost wages of at least a couple of thousand workers that are standing around doing nothing. Then other costs like ruined products that needs taking off the line, and the long start up processes i talked about before.... It all then starts getting Very expensive for that half a day's shut down!! lol!!

 

[sparks1234]

Is it a case of us older boys are real men and just get on with it and the whipper snappers are brought up on method statements and risk assessments?
wedge a bit of cardboard in and get on with it

 

[D Skelton]

I don't think I have anything more to add to this thread, just a thank you to all contributors. It is always good to see both sides of the coin

 

[CTID]

I have to step in for the younger, apparently less trained lads here, as unfortunately, due to the tighter health and safety, the introduction of management with no electrical background, it is harder and harder to be permitted to work live. Common sense no longer prevails with these people and nobody wants to risk their job by going against what a supervisor imposes.
I myself have thankfully had chance to work live, on brand new 3phase installations and also on old boards where every copper strip/plate was on show once cover was removed. Do I feel safe working live on these boards, yes, has it been necessary yes.
I would not however say that those that haven't had this opportunity are less trained than me, they have had less opportunities certainly but I can guarantee they will have areas of expertise that I don't.
Working live has its needs and when done, should only be done when the relevant RAMS are in place, to do it on the sly is just asking for trouble.
What does rile me is the old timers saying they are the best/real men/properly trained/real apprenticeship people of this trade. Times evolve, training to match, if a company says no to live working, due to health and safety/EAWR/policies/insurance then that spark will not get the opportunity to work live, I don't agree that he isn't properly trained though. I have learnt a lot from old timers, but I tell you something, I have also shown them a thing or two also. Also you go on about as an apprentice you worked live as if your superior to young ones who didn't, well guess what, unless you hold a gold card nowadays, a lot of sites won't let you work live, therefore the apprentice of today doesn't have the opportunity.
Like everything times change and the old timers need to embrace this rather than snigger at those who do things differently to how they did it.

 

[7029 dave]

At the end of the day, we just can't do what we did 30 odd years ago!!lol, times have moved on, its all about covering one's A...

 

[D Skelton]

What does rile me is the old timers saying they are the best/real men/properly trained/real apprenticeship people of this trade.

I'm not one for old timer bashing, but this is the one thing that riled me as well. I know deep down they don't mean it to sund this way because they are all good blokes on here, but sometimes things can come across in a way that can seem disparaging to others without it meaning to.