**Show Us Your Installs!!!**

[pennywise]

I can't wait for what's going to come

 

[Billythekid]

It's designed into the spec of an installation, "Just in case" some numpty who thinks he knows it all and more than the Regs comes along and replaces a section of steel conduit with plastic because it's easier or gets around the problem of threading a section that may be installed through a floor etc..

Damn, that would have been a better explanation than my drawn out, convoluted one.

Regards

Billy

 

[Engineer54]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

 

[johnboy6083]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

I agree with the above. Conduit, trunking, chassis of switchgear ect are all suitable for use as CPC, and I don't see a problem with continuing that. I do however see a problem with bad workmanship, but the same goes for systems where a CPC has been pulled in, any numpty could break the continuity with a bad termination. Testing should weed this out, but we cant guarantee we have seen everything.

 

[Billythekid]

...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

Come on, I'm sure we've always been stark raving Mad?

As said, in a contractual stance you're absolutely right (you can only be held responsible for your actions, etc.). However more and more pressure is being applied to designers to cover all eventualities, even if this means designing in costs!

I see both sides of the argument (I'm going to get a splinter from sitting on this fence). I personally feel that this "dumbing down" is to the detriment of every professional within this industry, but it's happening, and I can't see it stopping. Look at it this way:- If you're the client and have your own facilities management team, would you over spec to compensate for lack of knowledge and understanding within your team, or would you spec minimum, and pay professionals to carry out alterations?

I'm not saying it's right, only that it happens.

Regards

Billy

 

[Knobhead]

I personally feel that this "dumbing down" is to the detriment of every professional within this industry, but it's happening, and I can't see it stopping.

So do we accept this dumbing down or try to make common sense prevail?

If the collages held up high standards and not just focus on the quick buck we may get somewhere. The collages will churn out as many ill-informed installers as they can.

To lower the price you have to lower the standard. A basic fact of economics. You want a good containment system it costs, DI Joe will bodge it together and probably add to the cost.

 

[Billythekid]

So do we accept this dumbing down or try to make common sense prevail?

If the collages held up high standards and not just focus on the quick buck we may get somewhere. The collages will churn out as many ill-informed installers as they can.

To lower the price you have to lower the standard. A basic fact of economics. You want a good containment system it costs, DI Joe will bodge it together and probably add to the cost.

Trying to get me off the fence eh? :nono:

I haven't accepted a thing, infact I left my last job because of a similar reason. I am seriously contemplating not going back, I am sick of watching the cost managers destroy the industry that I loved. I fear there is no way for common sense to prevail.

Colleges are a business, they couldn't care less about the standards - only making profit (although there are still a few lecturers that care).

That was my fleeting comment "that's the problem, it's down to a price, not up to standard!" (with some profanities, obviously :lipsrsealed2.

So here I am :boat: (up the creek. . .)

Regards

Billy

 

[Knobhead]

You looking for this place?

 

[Billythekid]

You looking for this place?

^^^ This is brilliant :smilielol5:

 

[Knobhead]

http://www.****creekpaddleshop.com/

Fill in the ****

 

[ipf]

You looking for this place?

Brochure come free with every Electrical Trainee course ?

 

[Guest55]

You looking for this place?

i've got an account there.
15% off XL sizes
;-)

 

[Outspoken]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

I'm curious as to which part of "Designed into the spec" you singularly failed to understand. If it is designed into the spec then you have to install it, it's what you're paid to do...Thats why they are designers and we are installers..

We know what we are doing and let them think they do, the world is then a harmonious place of less stress. Whether it is right or wrong is IRRELEVANT, if they spec they want a cpc in every flipping conduit who the faff am I to argue, I get paid anyway...

 

[Engineer54]

The only thing i've failed to understand, is what sort of morons are writing/producing these spec's, that call for CPC's in metal containment systems!!

My comments above, were towards your leaning on the side of CPC's now being required in a metallic containment system.

 

[Outspoken]

The only thing i've failed to understand, is what sort of morons are writing/producing these spec's, that call for CPC's in metal containment systems!!

My comments above, were towards your leaning on the side of CPC's now being required in a metallic containment system.

I was not leaning either way, I simply reproduced two of the relevant Regs for people to read and decide for themselves and state why sparks install them, because they are in the specs of an install and so they install them as required.

You can read it any way you want.

 

[Engineer54]

I was not leaning either way, I simply reproduced two of the relevant Regs for people to read and decide for themselves and state why sparks install them, because they are in the specs of an install and so they install them as required.

You can read it any way you want.

I know it's early here and have just woken up, but i'm sure if you read your post again, you can't blame anyone for reading it as if your supporting, rather than just complying!!


As for your last comment on that same post, you would have to be totally incompetent at installing metal containment systems, not to have a fully complying system ''Without'' the separate CPC's...

 

[Tsakitsan]

A couple of things.......

If you were to leave a little more length in the CU then you would be able to get the cables a little neater.

The fly leads in the accessories shouldn't be coiled

You do not really need the fly leads as you have cpc's run in and the conduit is earthed at the CU, and the back boxes are fixed lug. The only time you really need fly leads is if you have no cpc's and you are using the conduit as your means of earthing.

These are just pointers and are not criticisms!!, overall it's a nice install and a bloody good job compared to a lot of college work I see!

Thank you about the observations! I understand that the fly leads are actually optional but I was instructed to do it that way and I would have been marked down for not putting them. I know you'll understand. oh! And I coiled them because... I just wanted to do so (it looked more "cool" when it was not stretched) . I cannot understand why not to do that.. To avoid inductance from being produced or something? avoid pressuring the cable?

Couple of observations;

1. The layout of the conduit should have been considered so that they did not need to cross
2. Conductor length needs attention, if you look at one of the browns in the spur you can see where it has been rubbed when the faceplate screwed back.

I appreciate a lot comes with experience, but it's things like the scuffed cable that can cause you problems both in college and the real world, I would be none to impressed when testing a new install to find that.

Thank you about your observations, I did realise that the line at the switched fused connection unit was rubbed only after you told me!

And for the general arguement about installing a separate cpc inside the already earthed CU, I just wanted to say that is an ACOP .. NOT compulsory as everyone knows but it can be used against you in the court of law "JUST IN CASE" something did actually go wrong.
So firstly, if you are against the "just in case scenarios" and secondly you are actually in a situation where you'll be in the position of selecting the wiring method, just don't use it.
Otherwise just do. :gunsmilie:

 

[Knobhead]

And I coiled them because... I just wanted to do so (it looked more "cool" when it was not stretched) . I cannot understand why not to do that.. To avoid inductance from being produced or something?

The very reason I would make you take any coiled earth bond out!

 

[High Tower]

The very reason I would make you take any coiled earth bond out!

Couldn't agree more, and even simpler terms are that If they are coiled then they take up a lot more room and you are going to struggle to
Pin the accessory back without trapping / nicking / catching cables

 

[High Tower]

And further to the debate that has gone on, please let's not confuse the subject for the op! We all know that E54 is correct in that a continuous metatarsal containment system does not require a seperate cpc.......... However!, in the words of E54 ("if it was one of my projects it would be done..............")

As everyone is quick to point out, if its in the spec or if the engineer demands it then it must be done that way. Well on this occasion the spec set by the college and C&G calls for seperate cpc's so seperate cpc's is what the op has installed.

I suspect the reason they do it this way is so that they can teach 6 wire Rfc's and metal containment at the same time.

 

[Billythekid]

And further to the debate that has gone on, please let's not confuse the subject for the op! We all know that E54 is correct in that a continuous metatarsal containment system does not require a seperate cpc.......... However!, in the words of E54 ("if it was one of my projects it would be done..............")

As everyone is quick to point out, if its in the spec or if the engineer demands it then it must be done that way. Well on this occasion the spec set by the college and C&G calls for seperate cpc's so seperate cpc's is what the op has installed.

I suspect the reason they do it this way is so that they can teach 6 wire Rfc's and metal containment at the same time.

Spoilsport:49:

 

[Engineer54]

][/B]And for the general arguement about installing a separate cpc inside the already earthed CU, I just wanted to say that is an ACOP .. NOT compulsory as everyone knows but it can be used against you in the court of law "JUST IN CASE" something did actually go wrong.

Absolute Rubbish!!

You'll have far more chance of the Separate CPC's failing, than the metal containment system. Along with more chance of failing compliance on conduit fill ratio's. ....lol!!

Next you'll be telling us to run T&E cables in metal containment systems...

 

[Outspoken]

E54, I am curious, your tag states your in China, and I appreciate that may or may not be the case, but have you actually seen the quality of sparks being turned out in the UK these days, have you see the so called quality of their tube work and trunking...seriously I have seen conduit work so bad i would be tempted to ask them to a put an earth tag across each and every flipping joint to be sure. I appreciate we cannot tar all with the same brush but JTL and the 5WWW providers have a lot to answer for and perhaps this helps to explain why some designers/engineers are spec'ing cpc's in metal containment systems.

 

[Engineer54]

E54, I am curious, your tag states your in China, and I appreciate that may or may not be the case, but have you actually seen the quality of sparks being turned out in the UK these days, have you see the so called quality of their tube work and trunking...seriously I have seen conduit work so bad i would be tempted to ask them to a put an earth tag across each and every flipping joint to be sure. I appreciate we cannot tar all with the same brush but JTL and the 5WWW providers have a lot to answer for and perhaps this helps to explain why some designers/engineers are spec'ing cpc's in metal containment systems.

Oh believe me, on this i'm fully behind you!!

No, i haven't seen the inside of a decent sized project in the UK for some years now, but even that was an eye opener. And it was a full metal containment installation, on a steel framed building of some size!! Basically it was a large well known commercial shopping centre.


Yes i am in China, this is my second project over here, and probably on the last project of my career. Time will tell if i'm going to miss the daily challenges. lol!! I doubt very much if i'd ever contemplate working in any role in the UK again, for the very reasons you give above. It seems the electrical industry has been fragmented and de-skilled to a level/point that it'll never recover from. I don't particularly want to see, or be any part of that, i prefer to remember our industry as it once was, ...a highly respected and proud industry!!

 

[Knobhead]

It seems the electrical industry has been fragmented and de-skilled to a level/point that it'll never recover from. I don't particularly want to see, or be any part of that, i prefer to remember our industry as it once was, ...a highly respected and proud industry!!

Never a truer thing said. It depresses me to see the way things have gone.

No original thinking seems to go on now. Repairing things? Needs a new one is the stock answer.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Well big boys, Tony and E54 etc, if you're that passionate about it, why don't you start hassling the people who are perpetrating all this rubbish.

Whinging away on an Internet forum will get you now where.
I don't know the answer,but I'm sure there is one.

Tony, you're retired now, start lobbying or something (I don't know!), with Wifi you can do it from the pub.

 

[ipf]

Well big boys, Tony and E54 etc, if you're that passionate about it, why don't you start hassling the people who are perpetrating all this rubbish.

Whinging away on an Internet forum will get you now where.
I don't know the answer,but I'm sure there is one.

Tony, you're retired now, start lobbying or something (I don't know!), with Wifi you can do it from the pub.

One way street mate, no way back IMO....but, we'll see in the future when things turn really sour. Being proved correct isn't always that satisfying, I feel.

 

[Knobhead]

One of my PC's is in the pub, what do I need WiFi for?

 

[Engineer54]

Well big boys, Tony and E54 etc, if you're that passionate about it, why don't you start hassling the people who are perpetrating all this rubbish.

Whinging away on an Internet forum will get you now where.
I don't know the answer,but I'm sure there is one.

Tony, you're retired now, start lobbying or something (I don't know!), with Wifi you can do it from the pub.

Your the bloody fools that allowed the demise of the Industry, so why don't YOU and the others working in the industry in the UK, get off your arses and do something about it??

 

[Tsakitsan]

Absolute Rubbish!!

You'll have far more chance of the Separate CPC's failing, than the metal containment system. Along with more chance of failing compliance on conduit fill ratio's. ....lol!!

Next you'll be telling us to run T&E cables in metal containment systems...

Thank you :blush2: but what will I tell you next is out of your prediction range-ability! I am unpredictable :winkiss:

 

[Spudnik]

Can we keep this thread on topic please.

Ta.

 

[Outspoken]

Well big boys, Tony and E54 etc, if you're that passionate about it, why don't you start hassling the people who are perpetrating all this rubbish.

Whinging away on an Internet forum will get you now where.
I don't know the answer,but I'm sure there is one.

Tony, you're retired now, start lobbying or something (I don't know!), with Wifi you can do it from the pub.

Archy, valid area of discussion, more than happy to participate, but it really needs it's own thread as it will seriously derail this thread more than we already have, I would suggest the Pub but I cannot see or post in there.

 

[pennywise]

Search around there are plenty of threads on it, or that have become it

 

[Knobhead]

Search around there are plenty of threads on it, or that have become it

This one developed quite well, with a few frayed tempers along the way http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...67808-eca-esc-announce-major-partnership.html

 

[onions1066]

Domestic board swap done this afternoon not a great photo done by phone. Well that's my excuse anyway.

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

Domestic board swap done this afternoon not a great photo done by phone. Well that's my excuse anyway. View attachment 19120

Beautiful job mate, love a nice tidy board!

 

[onions1066]

These jobs are being done on a price, this board was part of an upgrade on a property, if I told you the price for changing this board it would bring a tear to your eye. I does mine uke:

 

[linuxthefish]

Someone seems to have gone over the top with the asbestos labels at work...

 

[Engineer54]

Someone that must be fightened of his own shadow springs to my mind!!

 

[somersetsparks]

Absolute Rubbish!!

You'll have far more chance of the Separate CPC's failing, than the metal containment system. Along with more chance of failing compliance on conduit fill ratio's. ....lol!!

Next you'll be telling us to run T&E cables in metal containment systems...

I have always thought you would see a lot more metal conduit/trunking systems were most people not running in unnecessary cpc's. 25% less cable, smaller trunking/conduit runs etc. Then along comes mr. 'just in case' who decides to start speccing Cpc's in tube and it becomes un-cost effective. So now, to keep costs down, instead of proper all metallic conduit systems we have twin in basket. - brilliant!
The prophecy is entirely self-fulfilling - sparks don't do as much conduit and are less quick at it, costs of conduit etc. rises as less is used, cost of T+E and basket falls as more is used. and suddenly conduit becomes a rarity.

Which is safer in the end. - An entirely metal conduit installation with no cpc's. Or hundreds of twins with single strand cpc's strung around in basket?

 

[specs]

Domestic board swap done this afternoon not a great photo done by phone. Well that's my excuse anyway. View attachment 19120

That is a work of art, can't see any spare ways, but regardless a work of art

 

[specs]

Someone seems to have gone over the top with the asbestos labels at work...

Clearly a case of ' I bought this roll of tape, and by God i'm gonna use it' syndrome

 

[onions1066]

That is a work of art, can't see any spare ways, but regardless a work of art

Just 1 on the main switch. Would of been 2 spare but had to split the ring into 2 radials. The price for it is crap on this contract but I try to still keep it half decent despite the price. Price work breeds **** work and apprentices who are taught on price are a recipe for disaster but that's for another time .

 

[Marvo]

I actually got out of the office and went to site with my tools last week. I was there and working for a full day installing a panel I had previously put together in the workshop....a full day.... I even impressed myself. I was going to post a few pictures but the camera's in the car, it's raining and I only have socks on so it will have to wait for anther night.

 

[onions1066]

I actually got out of the office and went to site with my tools last week. I was there and working for a full day installing a panel I had previously put together in the workshop....a full day.... I even impressed myself. I was going to post a few pictures but the camera's in the car, it's raining and I only have socks on so it will have to wait for anther night.

Are your shoes in the car as well?

 

[Marvo]

Not sure where they are, think the wife might have hidden them.

 

[dan86]

Hidden them, or just tidied up?

 

[Marvo]

Okay here's the panels;









And here's me doing a full days work on site;

 

[Marvo]

Hidden them, or just tidied up?

Oh she's definitely hidden them but she'll claim she just tidied them up because I just kicked them off into the middle of the lounge when I arrived home.

 

[onions1066]

Thanks for that, what's the panel controlling?