Does this need to be bonded?

HappyHippyDad · Feb 2, 2022

I have just put in a sub distribution board in the middle of a field for a new supply for some poly tunnels (soil heating mats and lighting). I have made it a TT.

I have noticed that they have concreted in a number of separate metal hollow poles (see picture) which will be part of the polytunnel. I haven't tested these yet, but they will test as extraneous. If they remain as they are (i.e accessible) do they require Main bonding?

I do get confused with bonding! Every year I re-read up on it, feel I've got it, and then either forget it or a new scenario comes along!

My thoughts are that it will need a 10mm into the nearby DB as it is an 'exposed metallic structural part of the building', which is one of the examples of an extraneous conductive part (411.3.1.2). However, each post is a separate piece of extraneous, so I need to continue this 10mm around the poly tunnel to each post. Is this right? Or, does it not require bonding for whatever reason?

PS.. there will be no livestock in the field at any time.

[ElectriciansForums.net] Does this need to be bonded?

mart spark · Feb 2, 2022

I can't see why you would. They are outside already so will be at true earth potential and by the look of the photo not a part of the electricsl installation so are just pieces of metal. I could be wrong but if they aren't exposed conductive parts and aren't part of a structure then, i dont see why they would need bonding. Otherwise we will be bonding every random piece of outdoor metal.

timhoward · Feb 2, 2022

I get why you are asking. They pass the 3 point test for being extraneous conductive parts.
I know it sounds odd, but I think I'd loop test them!
I'd want to know whether there is any point/benefit connecting a metal pole in the ground to a metal rod in the ground, and whether it actually lowers the impedance to any degree that is meaningful.

I'm sure everything in there will be RCD protected and you'd need arms like Mr Tickle to touch two of them at once. If it proves that they have reasonable impedance anyway I currently don't see the point of bonding them.

LastManOnline · Feb 2, 2022

timhoward said:
you'd need arms like Mr Tickle to touch two of them at once.

There, s your answer there. Even within the the home bonding not required if a distance greater than 2.5 mts exists between extraneous parts.

mattg4321 · Feb 2, 2022

In the event of a faulty rcd that doesn’t disconnect on a TT system in the event of a fault, I think I’d rather as few exposed conductive/extraneous metal parts as possible.

Will there be a floor going in the poly tunnels or will you effectively be standing in the dirt?

HappyHippyDad · Feb 2, 2022

mattg4321 said:
In the event of a faulty rcd that doesn’t disconnect on a TT system in the event of a fault, I think I’d rather as few exposed conductive/extraneous metal parts as possible.

Will there be a floor going in the poly tunnels or will you effectively be standing in the dirt?

I expect they'll be standing on the earth/dirt.

mattg4321 · Feb 2, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I expect they'll be standing on the earth/dirt.

In that case I personally don’t see the benefit of bonding, only the drawback as above.

cliffed · Feb 4, 2022

Are these hollow pipes for the metal arches for the tunnel.

ImpededLoop · Feb 4, 2022

Assuming that they are extraneous and that they will be extended with metallic hoops to for the structure of the polytunnel, I would say that they need to be bonded. You've mentioned a lighting installation, so it might be possible to touch a light fitting and a hoop simultaneously? Also, what about the controls for the heating? Where will they be located and do they have exposed conductive parts?

You may not need a 10mm bonding conductor. Have a look in GN8 as you may be able to use 6mm on your TT system.

cliffed · Feb 4, 2022

ImpededLoop said:
Assuming that they are extraneous and that they will be extended with metallic hoops to for the structure of the polytunnel, I would say that they need to be bonded. You've mentioned a lighting installation, so it might be possible to touch a light fitting and a hoop simultaneously? Also, what about the controls for the heating? Where will they be located and do they have exposed conductive parts?

You may not need a 10mm bonding conductor. Have a look in GN8 as you may be able to use 6mm on your TT system.

Defo if accessories are fixed to the structure it will need MBPC.
Maybe the structure will be linked somehow, & thus only one MBPC point

DPG · Feb 4, 2022

cliffed said:
Defo if accessories are fixed to the structure it will need MBPC.
Maybe the structure will be linked somehow, & thus only one MBPC point

That's what I was thinking - maybe all the arched poles are joined together by a central pole at the top.

Zerax · Feb 4, 2022

cliffed said:
Are these hollow pipes for the metal arches for the tunnel.

I suspect they'll be the hooped plastic pipe type supports... so MDPE water pipe just stuffed into those hollow pipes. The PVC sheeting, when tight, will be part of the structure... until a good gale of wind rips it and it all ends up in the next county !

LastManOnline · Feb 4, 2022

ImpededLoop said:
You may not need a 10mm bonding conductor.

A 10mm metal bond is not required in this case as the resistance of the extraneous parts in question will be much higher than the usual extraneous items we deal with such as water pipes and other metallic services. A 4mm bond will be more than adequate.

timhoward · Feb 4, 2022

It would still be fun to loop test them, if only
to have a good laugh if they have lower impedance than the official earth electrode….

We do have to remember that bonding in this case is joining a metal thing in the ground to another metal thing in the ground.

pc1966 · Feb 4, 2022

mattg4321 said:
In the event of a faulty rcd that doesn’t disconnect on a TT system in the event of a fault, I think I’d rather as few exposed conductive/extraneous metal parts as possible.

It might be worth using a 100mA delay incomer, while providing little in the way if direct contact shock protection that way a fault will clear even if a final circuit RCD has failed.

LastManOnline · Feb 4, 2022

timhoward said:
It would still be fun to loop test them, if only
to have a good laugh if they have lower impedance than the official earth electrode….

Yes. Would be interesting to know what the total Fli is with all metal legs tied together

timhoward said:
We do have to remember that bonding in this case is joining a metal thing in the ground to another metal thing in the ground.

Bonding in a home assumes there is little or no hand to foot fault current current flow.
This does, nt apply outside.

Bonding in the home assumes connected metalwork has a low resistance to earth.
This is unlikely to apply in OP, s case.

So what will bonding achieve?. If there is a fault in a class 1 accessory all metalwork becomes live providing multiple fault paths to "real earth".
I think I would prefer unbonded metalwork in this case and ideally use class 2 light fittings /accessories that may be attached to the metalwork

timhoward · Feb 4, 2022

I'm in agreement with @LastManOnline. As far as I can see, in this situation, all bonding does is give you more chances to die if the RCD fails.

If the person was reasonably insulated from real earth, e.g. standing on a giant rubber mat, then there are obvious benefits to to ensuring that a faulty appliance/light casing and the poles are held at the same potential, so under fault conditions touching either or both wouldn't cause a shock.
But in this case there is an instant ~1000 ohm path to real earth via the human to soil. Touch one thing live, never mind two, and you have a problem. So in this situation limiting the number of items you can touch at mains potential does seem preferable to me.
The only other aspect would be the poles becoming directly live themselves, e.g. a faulty class 1 heater resting against one. As it's TT then we'd be relying on the RCD anyway as limited current would flow. I like the idea of an additional up-front S type 100ma RCD and 30ma RCBOs so you get some redundancy in fault conditions.

brianmoooore · Feb 4, 2022

Zerax said:
I suspect they'll be the hooped plastic pipe type supports... so MDPE water pipe just stuffed into those hollow pipes. The PVC sheeting, when tight, will be part of the structure..

This is the method of construction of the ones I've seen around here.

HappyHippyDad · Feb 4, 2022

Went back there today for 20 mins and tested the posts. They test 101ohms between posts and the same between post and rod.
I didn't do an EFLI test on the posts though, sorry!
I can't quite see how bonding helps in this case.
All posts will have a similar Ra to the rod. If there is a fault to earth the RCD will trip.
If a person came into contact with one of the posts whilst simultaneously touching an exposed conductive part that was somehow live, the RCD would trip as the posts are <1667ohms.

cliffed · Feb 5, 2022

This may help determining an extraneous conductive part

HappyHippyDad · Feb 5, 2022

cliffed said:
This may help determining an extraneous conductive part

Hi cliffed,
These posts are definitely extraneous as they measure 101Ω to the MET. However, they are pretty much the same as the rod in the ground (66ohms). If anyone touched them under fault conditions the RCD would trip as they are below 1667ohms.

I've heard conflicting arguments about this.

Its clear to me why an Extraneous Conductive Part (ExtCP) needs bonding IF it measures between 1667Ω and 22KΩ to the MET, as between this range the current into the human (poorly worded) between a fault and the ExtCP will be >10mA.

The bit that is not clear to me is why do we still need to bond IF the ExtCP has a sufficiently low resistance to MET, meaning that the RCD will trip if we come into contact with it under fault conditions.

I have used 1667Ω as this is the known figure to trip a 30mA RCD in order to limit voltage to 50V. However, we use a figure of 200Ω for stability reasons AND we would have to be certain that the ExtCP is not going to be altered in any way (thus perhaps increasing its resistance to between 1667Ω and 22KΩ).

In my scenario, the posts are <200Ω to earth AND are not going to be altered, so why do they need bonding? What risk do they pose?

cliffed · Feb 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
Hi cliffed,
These posts are definitely extraneous as they measure 101Ω to the MET. However, they are pretty much the same as the rod in the ground (66ohms). If anyone touched them under fault conditions the RCD would trip as they are below 1667ohms.

I've heard conflicting arguments about this.

Its clear to me why an Extraneous Conductive Part (ExtCP) needs bonding IF it measures between 1667Ω and 22KΩ to the MET, as between this range the touch voltage between a fault and the ExtCP will be >10mA.

The bit that is not clear to me is why do we still need to bond IF the ExtCP has a sufficiently low resistance to MET, meaning that the RCD will trip if we come into contact with it under fault conditions.

I have used 1667Ω as this is the known figure to trip a 30mA RCD in order to limit voltage to 50V. However, we use a figure of 200Ω for stability reasons AND we would have to be certain that the ExtCP is not going to be altered in any way (thus perhaps increasing its resistance to between 1667Ω and 22KΩ).

In my scenario, the posts are <200Ω to earth AND are not going to be altered, so why do they need bonding? What risk do they pose?

They may need bonding for a definite earth connection reference point

DPG · Feb 5, 2022

Can't see the point of connecting a metal rod in the ground to another metal rod in the ground.

Or can I?

HappyHippyDad · Feb 5, 2022

DPG said:
Can't see the point of connecting a metal rod in the ground to another metal rod in the ground.

Or can I?

Covering your arse

pc1966 · Feb 5, 2022

DPG said:
Can't see the point of connecting a metal rod in the ground to another metal rod in the ground.

Or can I?

Depends on the goal. Linking them lowers Ra and also under high current faults could drop the step potential gradient a bit, but really to goal is to avoid it being needed in the first place!