16a socket

[elementps]

Hi all, hopefully just a quick one.

Been asked to install a 16a commando socket in commercial premises for table saw.
It will be on a dedicated 20A radial cct.
Although the appliance is rated at 15A, it does state to allow for currents of up to 18A for start-up.
So my question is relating to the commando socket, would a 16A socket be considered suitable, will it handle the 18A short term current?
Or should I be specifying a 32A commando socket?

Opinions please?

 

[gazj82]

I meant per socket outlet!! Not per double socket!! Jesus!

My point is if on a 20A MCB the appliance can be over the rating of the socket! An appliance that draws 18 amps (that some fool has put a 16A plug on) Will sit there forever without ever knocking out the MCB! The socket is only rated at a duty of 16A not 18!!!

I'm not disputing what the OSG sais. I am saying I don't think it is very good practice.

Are you saying you could use a 63A MCB and a 16mm cable and can still put a 16A socket on the end because to quote you "it's only protecting the cable" and not the fact that some ****wit might try and plug in an oversized appliance!

I'm sorry if I am missing some logic here - I just don't quite understand why you can't see my point, regardless of what the OSG implies.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I meant per socket outlet!! Not per double socket!! Jesus!

My point is if on a 20A MCB the appliance can be over the rating of the socket! An appliance that draws 18 amps (that some fool has put a 16A plug on) Will sit there forever without ever knocking out the MCB! The socket is only rated at a duty of 16A not 18!!!

I'm not disputing what the OSG sais. I am saying I don't think it is very good practice.

Are you saying you could use a 63A MCB and a 16mm cable and can still put a 16A socket on the end because to quote you "it's only protecting the cable" and not the fact that some ****wit might try and plug in an oversized appliance!

I'm sorry if I am missing some logic here - I just don't quite understand why you can't see my point, regardless of what the OSG implies.

then that would deem them incompetent....
further more it could be constituted as tampering...
but let us not forget....an MCB to BSEN60898 will hold for 1.45X its operating current for upto an hour before letting go..
let the curve characteristics deal with inrush....

 

[Lucien Nunes]

it's only protecting the cable

Including the one attached to the plug which ought to be 2.5mm², which would be protected by the 20A MCB but not by your 63A. What the MCB is not supposed to be called upon to do is discriminate between appliances that are suitable for connection to a 16A socket outlet (with consumption <16A) and those that are not.

Lucien

 

[44ALLAN]

I meant per socket outlet!! Not per double socket!! Jesus!

My point is if on a 20A MCB the appliance can be over the rating of the socket! An appliance that draws 18 amps (that some fool has put a 16A plug on) Will sit there forever without ever knocking out the MCB! The socket is only rated at a duty of 16A not 18!!!

Exactly the same scenario of plugging 2 x 3kw heaters into a double socket mate...............you install to the max load of the circuit.
A small inrush current of 18amp as opposed to 16amp is NOWT believe me and will not damage the integrity of the socket one iota
If you put a 16 amp socket on a 20A mcb and the cables are correctly sized and it's a 10amp load then all is perfect as the machine/appliance will have it's own protection.
Is someone decides to put a 'heavier load' on this socket by, whatever means,then there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

As you have stated................you fit 32Amp breakers on your ring mains which have 13Amp rated sockets on them.
How many 'punters' know what they can plug into these double sockets?
Do they know it is only one heater @3kw?
I doubt it

 

[gazj82]

I agree, about a MCB (and even the socket outlet) being able to deal with inrush. I am on about an appliance that draws a settled 18A after inrush.

I take your point about the incompetent shouldn't be tampering, but in the real world people do tamper, especially in small industry.

Someone who can't tell a switch wire when there isn't a brown sleeve is incompetent, but we still fit a brown sleeve to help the incompetent. If you need sleeving to reconise a switch wire in a ceiling rose then you shouldn't be in there imho - but incompetent people DO change light fittings, so I would expect them to change a plug.

 

[gazj82]

Now we are presuming the machine will have it's own protection - Do they?

If so then I stand corrected

 

[44ALLAN]

I agree, about a MCB (and even the socket outlet) being able to deal with inrush. I am on about an appliance that draws a settled 18A after inrush.

Well that's easy mate.................it should not be on a 16 amp socket.
Something pulling 18amp should be on a 63Amp Type C minimum IMO............................

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I agree, about a MCB (and even the socket outlet) being able to deal with inrush. I am on about an appliance that draws a settled 18A after inrush.

I take your point about the incompetent shouldn't be tampering, but in the real world people do tamper, especially in small industry.

Someone who can't tell a switch wire when there isn't a brown sleeve is incompetent, but we still fit a brown sleeve to help the incompetent. If you need sleeving to reconise a switch wire in a ceiling rose then you shouldn't be in there imho - but incompetent people DO change light fittings, so I would expect them to change a plug.

as long as the install/current using equipment was good & fit for use/continued service at the time of inspection & test then thats your arse covered isn`t it...
jesus wept, if we all went round sayin do this...dont do this, dont do that etc then we would get f**kall done....would we...
if f**kwits are goin to tamper...then let em...
as long as that bit of paper says it were rite at the time of install/ECR then....

 

[44ALLAN]

Now we are presuming the machine will have it's own protection - Do they?

If so then I stand corrected

Yup...............above .37kw I believe for o/l protection.................................

 

[gazj82]

I am not saying the regs don't permit it. I am not saying any of you are doing wrong by the regs by using a 20A MCB. Yes your arse is covered the regs back you up. Yes someone with no knoledge shouldn't be putting random plugs on appliances with no knowledge (maybe there are more idiots willing to do so round my way . I just think it's a bad regulation. The regs aren't perfect, thats why they have admendments and revisions.

 

[44ALLAN]

I am not saying the regs don't permit it. I am not saying any of you are doing wrong by the regs by using a 20A MCB. Yes your arse is covered the regs back you up. Yes someone with no knoledge shouldn't be putting random plugs on appliances with no knowledge (maybe there are more idiots willing to do so round my way . I just think it's a bad regulation. The regs aren't perfect, thats why they have admendments and revisions.

The mcb protects the cable mate not the appliance or the socket.................the sooner you get your head round this the easier it becomes................I think lol

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I am not saying the regs don't permit it. I am not saying any of you are doing wrong by the regs by using a 20A MCB. Yes your arse is covered the regs back you up. Yes someone with no knoledge shouldn't be putting random plugs on appliances with no knowledge (maybe there are more idiots willing to do so round my way . I just think it's a bad regulation. The regs aren't perfect, thats why they have admendments and revisions.

there`s nobheads all over mate...

they have ammendments and revisions as new equipment/products come onto the market...
and let us not forget the IET`s insidious ways...

 

[gazj82]

Yup...............above .37kw I believe for o/l protection.................................

If that is true. Then I agree this protects the socket from being overloaded.

 

[gazj82]

there`s nobheads all over mate...

they have ammendments and revisions as new equipment/products come onto the market...
and let us not forget the IET`s insidious ways...

Well at least we all agree there are knob heads everywhere

Of course revisions for new products also.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well at least we all agree there are knob heads everywhere

Of course revisions for new products also.

yeah....
and to get their grubby little mitts into your pocket....