18th edition question

[chris day]

Not been on the 18th edition course yet.

In short what are the design changes I will need to implement come jan 1st on a domestic re-wire?

 

[telectrix]

that niceic guidance clearly states that cables above ceilings are not an entanglement risk.

 

[Dave OCD]

Now we're using their guidance to our benefit, normally everybody says it's a load of old -------s.

 

[Octopus]

Now we're using their guidance to our benefit, normally everybody says it's a load of old ********.

I wouldn't say its to our benefit ................ the regs, as written are ambiguous ........ the NICEIC seem to have come to a conclusion that plasterboard is sufficient protection ..............

So its unlikely that Wirepuller is on a NICEIC course .......

 

[Nigel]

So done the 18th Edition today. The exam bloke stated to me that fire boards are ok - don’t need fire proof clips and also AFDDs are recommeded for all dwellings (sleeping accommodation).

 

[Ian1981]

I’d have thought sleeping accommodation as in the word accommodation would imply hotels ,HMO’s and the like

 

[Nigel]

I’d have thought sleeping accommodation as in the word accommodation would imply hotels ,HMO’s and the like

Same as me - hence the clarification sought by me. Apparently it is to be taken literally.

 

[ipf]

I’d have thought sleeping accommodation as in the word accommodation would imply hotels ,HMO’s and the like

Does that include bus stop shelters?

 

[Ian1981]

Does that include bus stop shelters?

Hahah

 

[Colin33]

I thought that fires were a thing of the past since the introduction of AMD 3? Have I been cutting and filing neat little IP maintaining holes in metal boxes for nothing?

 

[alasdairp]

Some interesting discussions above. I want to revisit an earlier topic discussion about arc detection from the IET Guidance Doc that was linked to above:

Chapter 42 Protection against thermal effects
"A new Regulation 421.1.7 has been introduced recommending the installation of arc fault detection devices (AFDDs) to mitigate the risk of fire in AC final circuits of a fixed installation due to the effects of arc fault currents."

How can a "Regulation" (which is necessarily enforced) make a "recommendation" (which by definition cannot be legally enforced). They are not the same legal entities - they have different legal meanings. I am going to formally ask the IET and the BSI about this. It is likely to cause a lot of frustrating legal and insurance liability issues. The IET could put it in the "On Site" Guide as a recommendation, but it should not be in BS7671 as a Regulation. OR, they should make it a mandatory legal requirement (which I would not support as I think it would be OTT).

Can someone please copy and paste 421.1.7 directly from the 18th Ed Regs as I do not need to buy a copy as I do not do any installation or inspection work these days (I am 67 and retired). Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

421.1.7 Arc fault detection devices conforming to BS EN 62606 are recommended as a means of providing additional protection against fire caused by arc faults in AC final circuits.
If used, an AFDD shall be placed at the origin of the circuit to be protected.
NOTE: Examples of where such devices can be used include: • premises with sleeping accommodation
• locations with a risk of fire due to the nature of processed or stored materials, i.e. BE2 locations (e.g. barns woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials)
• locations with combustible constructional materials, i.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings)
• fire propagating structures, i.e. CB2 locations
• locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods.

 

[alasdairp]

Many thanks! I see in my 17th Ed 401.1 'Scope' states:

"Chapter 41 specifies essential requirements regarding protection against electric shock, including basic protection of persons and livestock. It deals also with the application and co-ordination of those requirements in relation to external influences. Requirements are given for the application of additional protection in certain cases."

Is that the same in the 18th Ed? Note the word "requirements" used three times. This is no place for a waffly "recommend".

What National Grid lawyers insisted on in one document about high voltage transmission line safety for Government, that I was involved with, was to refuse even "recommend" (in case the Government took that as a desire of National Grid and made them pay) and insisted instead on "if further protection (i.e. above BS7671) is desired then (here: the use of AFDDs) should be considered (here: in specific types of locations). (I have put some appropriate words for AFDDs in italics). That makes it clear that it is not a requirement.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

18th edition wording:
“Chapter 41 specifies essential requirements regarding protection against electric shock, including basic protection and fault protection of persons and livestock. It deals also with the application and co-ordination of these requirements in relation to external influences.
Requirements are given for the application of additional protection in certain cases.”

 

[alasdairp]

18th edition wording:
“Chapter 41 specifies essential requirements regarding protection against electric shock, including basic protection and fault protection of persons and livestock. It deals also with the application and co-ordination of these requirements in relation to external influences.
Requirements are given for the application of additional protection in certain cases.”

Many thanks! It is inexcusable wording to then include an "it is recommended". I will chase the IET and BSI up about this as the cost of fitting these AFDDs will be quite a lot and will potentially also need a larger CU box. I think it could cause a lot of hassle for decent electricians, especially around Quotes.

 

[Spoon]

Many thanks! It is inexcusable wording to then include an "it is recommended". I will chase the IET and BSI up about this as the cost of fitting these AFDDs will be quite a lot and will potentially also need a larger CU box. I think it could cause a lot of hassle for decent electricians, especially around Quotes.

This was discussed in a previous post and I think it was @SparkyChick who came up with the great idea of doing 2 items for a quote. One with AFDDs and one without. Also stating that the regs recommend AFDDs... Then it is up to the customer which to choose.