NICEIC Certification Scheme 2391 V NICEIC - Whats the point in 2391??

[Steve Bramah]

For a long time the minimum requirements of NICEIC DI membership was the 2382 regs course, Elecsa were slightly higher. They are now owned by the same group and I don't think either require test and inspection quals to join. Not entirely sure now as I ditched my Elecsa membership a few years ago.

The membership of a scheme has nothing to do with your ability or competence to test and inspect work so not entirely sure what your point is here.

Hi Andy, NIC, Elecsa and ECA are now owned by Certsure. If you hold 2391, this proves your ability to test and inspect. I don't think having a 17th edition qualification would hack it in court.

 

[westward10]

Holding a 2391 means nowt.

 

[Andy78]

Hi Andy, NIC, Elecsa and ECA are now owned by Certsure. If you hold 2391, this proves your ability to test and inspect. I don't think having a 17th edition qualification would hack it in court.

For a long while the minimum entry requirements of the NICEIC were the 2382, I'm not making that up. I am not aware of any CPS scheme that requires test and inspection quals as competence is proved to their satisfaction on the initial assessment.

Anyway, we are digressing. Schemes, like building control and insurance companies, have no bearing on one's competence to test and issue a certificate to BS7671.

 

[Steve Bramah]

For a long time the minimum requirements of NICEIC DI membership was the 2382 regs course, Elecsa were slightly higher. They are now owned by the same group and I don't think either require test and inspection quals to join. Not entirely sure now as I ditched my Elecsa membership a few years ago.

The membership of a scheme has nothing to do with your ability or competence to test and inspect work so not entirely sure what your point is here.

Holding a 2391 means nowt.

How would you know, if you haven't got it. Try leaving your present employer and telling them you are a qualifying officer, but don't hold 2391. Good luck with that.

 

[123]

What's a qualifying officer? I thought it was Qualified Supervisor

 

[Steve Bramah]

For a long while the minimum entry requirements of the NICEIC were the 2382, I'm not making that up. I am not aware of any CPS scheme that requires test and inspection quals as competence is proved to their satisfaction on the initial assessment.

Anyway, we are digressing. Schemes, like building control and insurance companies, have no bearing on one's competence to test and issue a certificate to BS7671.

Hi Andy, i completely agree with you. I have 2391, but i still had issues with Building control and insurance companies becoming more complient. I eventually joined Elecsa to get them off my back, and by the way, you can't join Elecsa or NIC without 2391

 

[Andy78]

How would you know, if you haven't got it. Try leaving your present employer and telling them you are a qualifying officer, but don't hold 2391. Good luck with that.

With respect Steve you are barking up the wrong tree. I have been a member of this forum for many years and can attest to the fact that Westward does indeed know his stuff.
Any decent employer would look at past experience and positions coupled with recommendations as well as qualifications.
A certificate is not the be all and end all of proof of anything.

 

[123]

The requirements to join as an NICEIC Approved Contractor, from NICEIC Website...I don't even see a mention of 2391?


To apply for the Approved Contractor Scheme, you will need the following:

• Your business to have recently undertaken electrical installation work
• Appoint an appropriate person as a Principal Duty Holder and nominate one or more Qualified Supervisors.
• Have premises and equipment appropriate to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake, including test instruments suitable for carrying out the range of tests required by BS 7671
• Records of the ongoing accuracy and consistency of test equipment used for certification and reporting purposes
• Hold current editions of BS 7671 and other technical reference documents relevant to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake
• Have work available for inspection that represents the electrical work you typically undertake. The work should comply with BS 7671 and relevant codes of practice, and must have been undertaken in the previous 12 months under your business’ current trading title
• Hold at least £2 million Public Liability Insurance
• Maintain a record of any complaints made about the technical standard of electrical work carried out by your business, together with details of the remedial action taken
• Have a written Health and Safety Policy Statement and carry out risk assessments as appropriate

 

[Steve Bramah]

What's a qualifying officer? I thought it was Qualified Supervisor

That depends on how long you have been sat at the computer on a Bank Holiday Monday. Despite the etimology of the sentence, i think we get the jist of the conversation.

 

[Des 56]

I have 2391 but purely for personal satisfaction,I have the years of experience and wanted it coupled with a better than expected understanding of testing which I was undetaking

Normally,any required testing competence should be contained within the syllabus of the apprentices own training scheme

Its only because dilution of the trade has occurred,these specialised quals are brought out by some as some form of superior must have in your locker its a "add on" for a spark it is not a necessary or useful basic electricians training award

On its own it means nothing (as stated earlier)It may help a employer to be swayed into giving someone with the qual preference of one who does not hold it,however, that is mainly employer ignorance,ignorance of what constitutes good electrical training,the 2391 certainly does not constitute good basic training

 

[Steve Bramah]

With respect Steve you are barking up the wrong tree. I have been a member of this forum for many years and can attest to the fact that Westward does indeed know his stuff.
Any decent employer would look at past experience and positions coupled with recommendations as well as qualifications.
A certificate is not the be all and end all of proof of anything.

Please don't get me wrong. I cannot call Westwood for his abilities, and i am quite sure he is competent in what he does. Has this industry gone to pot, where the "competent person" clause now covers everything. Who and what defines competency? It used to be qualifications. Now, it appears to be an ambiguous statement, invented by the government. In a court of law, i would rather have a City & Guilds qualification in the field that i am working on, as opposed to being a "competent person".

 

[westward10]

I believe it is correct that one of the requirements for being a QS with Elesca is the 2391. I am a QS with an Elesca registered company and it has become an annual joke to ask me if I hold it yet.

 

[Andy78]

Please don't get me wrong. I cannot call Westwood for his abilities, and i am quite sure he is competent in what he does. Has this industry gone to pot, where the "competent person" clause now covers everything. Who and what defines competency? It used to be qualifications. Now, it appears to be an ambiguous statement, invented by the government. In a court of law, i would rather have a City & Guilds qualification in the field that i am working on, as opposed to being a "competent person".

Competence in our industry is as it always has been, defined by qualifications, training, and experience, or a combination of some or all of those things.

Look up the definition of Competent in the EAWR and the definition of skilled person (electrically) in BS7671.

 

[Steve Bramah]

The requirements to join as an NICEIC Approved Contractor, from NICEIC Website...I don't even see a mention of 2391?


To apply for the Approved Contractor Scheme, you will need the following:

• Your business to have recently undertaken electrical installation work
• Appoint an appropriate person as a Principal Duty Holder and nominate one or more Qualified Supervisors.
• Have premises and equipment appropriate to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake, including test instruments suitable for carrying out the range of tests required by BS 7671
• Records of the ongoing accuracy and consistency of test equipment used for certification and reporting purposes
• Hold current editions of BS 7671 and other technical reference documents relevant to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake
• Have work available for inspection that represents the electrical work you typically undertake. The work should comply with BS 7671 and relevant codes of practice, and must have been undertaken in the previous 12 months under your business’ current trading title
• Hold at least £2 million Public Liability Insurance
• Maintain a record of any complaints made about the technical standard of electrical work carried out by your business, together with details of the remedial action taken
• Have a written Health and Safety Policy Statement and carry out risk assessments as appropriate

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

 

[Dillb]

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

If those Electrical Trainee course advertise that you can become a “DI” and register with them and you think they will get the 2391 or equivalent on them do they?