ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[LlandrilloSpark]

Danspark.....u obviously are young or new to the game m8

 

[Engineer54]

I don't understand you all; part p was the best thing that happened to the industry.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us all, as to why you would think it's the ''best thing that's happened to the industry''??

I can think of only ONE reason why you might think so, but that would be to the detriment of all the time served or otherwise fully qualified and experienced electricians out there!!

 

[Danspark]

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us all, as to why you would think it's the ''best thing that's happened to the industry''??

Why is Part P good for the industry...?


In April 2005 when part P was introduced I needed it like a hole in the head; we were going through a boom, there was more work than I could handle, so with the introduction of Part P, the additional paperwork and conforming to rules set by a governing body it was far from desirable.


There were lots of folk flapping about what a mess it was, but I have to say it was mainly from other tradesman. Plumbers that wouldn’t be able to install a feed for a boiler, plasterers that couldn’t fit a socket whilst on site plastering a wall and kitchen fitters that would have to coordinate the arrival of an approved electrician that could conform to Part P of building regulations. To quote a kitchen fitter from 2005 that was asking me to certify his work “come on dan; you know me, it always works first time”.


How many of you have had an experience similar to this? I have Romanian contact that is a tiler (a bloody good tiler as well), he also provides the full “building service” he rings me and says “I have a job; i’ve rewired a house and the building inspector needs a certificate and confirmation of compliance with part P of the building regulations” ok i say, ill call and give you a cost to re-wire it. “no Danny, i’ve rewired it, i just need you to issue a certificate for me” Now, the job I first met him on he was tiling the floor for one of my customers, he saw a window for gaining more work and proceeded to lay the under floor heating himself. I was very interested in how he had gone about this and when i looked into it he had channeled up to the light switches with his cables coiled up expecting to pick up a feed.


I used to do a lot of insurance work for one of my builders. The common types were water damage, usually down to bad plumbing installations. The not so common lighting strikes and the worst of them all, fire damage. Now several of the fire damaged jobs that I worked on were electrical faults, examples are; Nokia charger bought for £0.99 off fleebay. A floor board that had been lifted and placed back with a nail through a cable. Another was caused by additional spotlights installed in a bedroom. It was clear to see it certainly was not done by a competent person or maybe it was and maybe he only had 2 hours on a sunday to get the work done and get out of there. It would have been a different story if it was done by someone who was accountable and their livelihood depended on them dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.

We are now 7 years into having lived with the change in our industry and I can honestly say that when I turn up to a domestic property there is a fair chance that the wiring is going to be in a better state than it would have been pre 2005, why, because if they have had any work done or the house has changed ownership then I can expect some improvements to have been made, and thats because of the introduction of Part P.


People I feel may be unduly suffering from part P would (for example) be one of the sparks I employ. He goes home after finishing a day for me, his wife wants him to install an extra socket in the kitchen so she can do the ironing while she waits for oven to ping. Now he thinks he’s competent to do the work, I think he’s competent to do the work, but you don’t know him, he can be lazy (if your reading this mate i don’t mean it, its just a scenario) but lets assume he hasn't done any work while he’s lived there and the wiring is as it was when he bought it (pre 2005) Is he going to go buy a new consumer unit and replace it, is he going to bond the water thats at the other end of the house is he going to test the circuits and record all the relevant data... he should be he just can’t be assed! So he either employs someone to do it or he does the work and turns a blind eye to the notification, maybe he just waits until he sells the house and has an electrical condition report carried out. (although this can be a problem if there was to be an insurance claim).


Building control notifications are now a legal requirement. But it has always been a legal requirement to issue a certificate for any electrical works carried out. One of my tutors from when I left school and went to college also worked for/with the IEE in respect to implementing new wiring regulations and was/is employed by prosecution teams in court cases when accusing electricians/companies for liability or neglect. He would say he could sit there and listen to the electrician/company all day and all he had to do was pull out the electricity at work act (which is, as far as I remember, is a statutory requirement) and ask “where’s the certificate?”


It makes sense to me that with the importance of the certificate and the legal obligation to comply with part P of the regulations that the customer (who knows very little) can relax knowing that their chosen spark will do what is expected of them. It is also important that the regulatory body who has taken the money from the electrician will also be accountable for the electricians that they have enrolled.


A lot of my work during this recession are requests for electrical condition reports. Not necessarily domestic, in-fact its mainly for commercial and industrial properties but this shows the growing concern and necessity for electrical safety, which we should be promoting!


Since the introduction of part P I’ve found myself in greater demand because i’m not competing with joe blogs that once new someone that had a brother that worked with a spark for a year and knows what he’s doing!
And then there’s that £50 job of fitting a socket for someone that now may be a bigger job as there are a ton of other works that may have to be done first.


If I meet a customer for the first time and they are pulling their face because they aren't concerned about the safety element or they have no concern for their responsibility for the electrical safety in their house then so be it, I don’t want them as a customer. I want my customers to be concerned, know they have called the right person and recommend me to their friends who’s only concern is also that “it’s done right”


Reading in every other thread the reference to governing bodies as Scams is doing us no favors at all. Are you not more peeved off with the HMRC who insist that we count beans for them on a regular basis, collect said beans, put to one side and send them off when required (risk being fined) with no payment from them what so ever! But I guess as with all my company expenses from paper, envelopes, books, ink tools safety clothes, more exams and bloody fuel, that it is all accounted for in my charges.


Summary...
I used to be a hairy arsed tradesman, I could turn up, install socket and get paid for the time on site and leave. *checks year end books... in 2004 I turned over £60,000 with £30,000 profit last year turned over £120,000 with £55,000 profit.
Now I’m providing a service, one that not just anyone can provide. I have fulfilled certain requirements, jumped through how ever many ridiculous hoops and when the NICEIC say jump I ask how high. But I then get to charge accordingly, I do nothing for free! its a business, more work more money!


Does this make me a forum troll D Skelton? hope not, I’ve tried to describe how part P has affected me and and answer Engineer54 as to why I think it was the best thing to happen to our industry. Does this make me unwelcome on the forum... maybe... or maybe ill start believing it’s a scam myself the more I read the posts on here.

Dan

 

[markc123]

Cant quote on mobile,apologies.You've just summed up whats bad about part p - plasteres fixing sockets and the like, the amount of times when checked the back boxes are unearthed is unbelievable. Problem with part p is you get people who arent electricians thinking they are electricians.For inatance i know a gas man who has part p registered on side of his van...i was wiring a caravan up and he questioned why i was extending the cable....i explained if he checked part 7 of the regs he would understand that the bottom of the outside socket must be 0.5meters from the ground....he went to his van and got the regs out and looked....what???Also ure saying that you sign off a romanian tilers rewires hahaha thats the best thing ive ever read....i dont care how good he is or that hes foreign, the bottom line is that hes not qualified so he shouldnt be doing it

 

[vaughant]

Cant quote on mobile,apologies.You've just summed up whats bad about part p - plasteres fixing sockets and the like, the amount of times when checked the back boxes are unearthed is unbelievable. Problem with part p is you get people who arent electricians thinking they are electricians.For inatance i know a gas man who has part p registered on side of his van...i was wiring a caravan up and he questioned why i was extending the cable....i explained if he checked part 7 of the regs he would understand that the bottom of the outside socket must be 0.5meters from the ground....he went to his van and got the regs out and looked....what???Also ure saying that you sign off a romanian tilers rewires hahaha thats the best thing ive ever read....i dont care how good he is or that hes foreign, the bottom line is that hes not qualified so he shouldnt be doing it

To be fair he didn't say he signed it off he said the guy WANTED him to do it.
Sadly it's like anything else,in THEORY it's a good idea but in practice that's not always the case.
I think you self employed guys need to break away from these idiot organisations and set up your own body,save all this nonsense you get now.

- - - Updated - - -

Cant quote on mobile,apologies.You've just summed up whats bad about part p - plasteres fixing sockets and the like, the amount of times when checked the back boxes are unearthed is unbelievable. Problem with part p is you get people who arent electricians thinking they are electricians.For inatance i know a gas man who has part p registered on side of his van...i was wiring a caravan up and he questioned why i was extending the cable....i explained if he checked part 7 of the regs he would understand that the bottom of the outside socket must be 0.5meters from the ground....he went to his van and got the regs out and looked....what???Also ure saying that you sign off a romanian tilers rewires hahaha thats the best thing ive ever read....i dont care how good he is or that hes foreign, the bottom line is that hes not qualified so he shouldnt be doing it

To be fair he didn't say he signed it off he said the guy WANTED him to do it.
Sadly it's like anything else,in THEORY it's a good idea but in practice that's not always the case.
I think you self employed guys need to break away from these idiot organisations and set up your own body,save all this nonsense you get now.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Started to read but rapidly lost interest

 

[MBEINST]

Started to read but rapidly lost interest

Oh Dear!

Danspark puts across some good points and the least we can do is the courtesy of reading his post. Maybe we are so high and mighty that nobody else's opinion but our own is worth listening too.

Is the forum turning into a ---- state?

Good post Danspark.

I would also be interested in enlightenment from those who have rejected joining a scheme 'scam' on how they notify their work?

'Think for yourselves, don't succumb to mob rule'.

 

[D Skelton]

I agree with most of what Dan says, but when we talk on here about Part P being crap for the industry, what most are referring to is the part of Part P that requires nontification through a governemt approved scheme. Its the private regulation most of us detest, not Part P as a whole. If it was government REGULATED and it existed not as a money making scam but purely to make sure sparks had the neccesarry quals, I think most would welcome it. The scam is private companies telling us what we can and can't do and charging us through the nose to do it. Hope that explains where I sit Dan. And apologies for assuming you were trolling, it is quite clear now that you have your head screwed on, although in my opinion very slightly misguided. Maybe we are partly to blame for that though.

Anyway, I would like to ask if we could keep the part p bashing to a minimum, this is purely a post for Elecsa bashing! Lol.

 

[Danspark]

How do markc123,


You started by saying “I have summed up whats bad about part p - plasterers fixing sockets and the like.” but this is whats good about part p. If a plasterer chooses to do some electrical installation work (domestic property only) he has chosen to break the law. This works in our favor does it not? Laws are in place and it will to some degree stop people from breaking them, granted, not always. Out of interest, if a plasterer was to buy a steel back box where still sells them with two adjustable lugs? I haven’t seen these type in my wholesalers for a long time but you describe the non earthing of back boxes as “unbelievable”. I believe that it is desirable but it often is not a necessity. Assuming that we have a modern metallic back box with 1 fixed lug and 1 adjustable lug then care must be taken because some socket-outlets have only one earthing strap and eyelet (mine have two). If this is the case you must be sure that the earthing eyelet is located at the fixed lug position, otherwise an earthing tail must be used. if you are still earthing back boxes then good on ya! but it is not a requirement! and IMHO it is not “unbelievable” not to.


I did NOT say that i signed off a Romanian tilers re-wires, he was asking me to sign it off, I said I would cost for re-wiring it, he explains he’s done it, I explain that ill re-wire it again and then he can have a certificate (i thought this was a good way to teach him not to touch electrics!!!!)


The other point you make about a gas man who has part p registered on the side of his van... correct me if i’m wrong, but part P is for compliance within a domestic property and assuming your caravan was in a caravan park why would you expect him to know anything about the height of a socket? this falls outside the scope of his work does it not? sounds like he was interested to learn and it is applaudable that he carries regulations around in his van.

Dan

 

[Simlec]

Indeed, Dan I think your missing the original problem that was posted!
I'm all for been regulated annually and paying my money.

 

[Engineer54]

Well you have painted a rosy picture that all sounds great on paper, but you are conveniently leaving out/skimming over what has been the real reality of the the present Part Pee scam providers input so far, into this industry. Part Pee itself is not the problem, though there is room for some sensible improvement. ...It's the commercial oriented providers that's the main problem with Part Pee.


These scam providers have created the lowest class of electrician that you could possibly think of, that's sole qualification is nothing more than a add-on certificate. I can't think of another responsible Western country that would allow such a standard! These folk are going into peoples homes and conducting electrical work, that were in some cases, stacking shelves at a Tesco store just 17 day's earlier. This has had a knock on effect throughout the electrical contracting industry not just in the domestic area. Think about it and you'll understand Why!!

Another knock on effect, is the rise of these centres offering 17 day/5 week DI courses, which are encouraged and often supported by these scam providers. These totally under trained inexperienced (so-called DI's ...whatever that's supposed to mean) are literary flooding the domestic jobbing electrician sector. So much for your competent person statements above. By the way these scam providers are NOT governing bodies, though they all like to think and act as if they were!!

Please don't try and convince us here about the standard of work in the domestic sector as haven risen since 2005, you only have to look at the standard of these so called certs that have been filled in by totally inept wanna-be electricians. Also, contrary to what you believe, the scam providers have no legal responsibility for the registered members, or their customers. Try getting any of them involved in any member/customer dispute, and you'll soon find out for yourself!! lol!! The only thing they get concerned with, is folk that are using their Logo on vans and stationary!!


These part Pee scams have all just jumped onto a captive money making loop, that just keeps making more and more money, but which offers very little benefit to anyone else least of all it's members or the members customers, but has however over the years, helped in the detriment of the industry as a whole...

As far as safety goes, these providers are effectively contradicting the very reason why they came into existence in the first place, ....providing authentication of competent persons!! Anyone personally know of anyone failing an assessment based on not being competent?/ I bet you could count them on one hand... lol!!

I could go on, but to be honest i just can't be arsed, i'll leave that to the plenty of others here that can rip through your post above...

- -

 

[Danspark]

*sorry ezzzekiel, no pictures I'm afraid so you may lose interest again.

Hi Simlec,


Your right, and I must apologize to D Skelton who clearly didn’t want his post hijacking with a debate about our thoughts on part P I simply couldn’t handle listening to Part P being described as useless and a con on so many threads that I read, I just happened to chose this thread to say something, I was then asked to explain myself and I tried). Sorry D Skelton for the hijack.


I’ve read over the original post again and heres my views on your views regarding the classifications of approved contractor and domestic installer which i think is your primary gripe with the electrical safety register.


NICEIC and their classifications of approved contractors and domestic installers. In the beginning the NICEIC had approved contractors, with the introduction of part p they had to accommodate electricians that could meet the “lower” requirements in order to be allegeable for working on domestic properties, hence the introduction of “domestic installer”. Just incase I'm insulting anyone by referring to domestic installer as being lower requirements let me give an example. I’m an approved contractor, my local Landrover dealers has to source a contractor for working at their property. If I'm going to work on the fire alarm panel I must meet the requirements set by the NICEIC and own an up to date copy of BS 5839 part 1 code of practice. If, on my annual assessment I haven't worked on a fire alarm system then I'm not required to own a copy (sounds fair?). The cost of being an approved contractor (annual fee, not including additional literature that may be required) was X amount and to accommodate part p and domestic installer status was a lower fee. However when I looked at these costs it wasn’t worth not going for approved contractor status. Since the name “approved contractor” was already being used by the NICEIC another term had to be used to describe those that could work on domestic properties hence the introduction of “domestic installer” (DSkelton, This is how you describe it only i see it the other way round, all electricians were approved contractors until the introduction of domestic installer which would be charged at a lower fee). (again this sounds fair) It did annoy me that some domestic installer electricians approved with the NICEIC were describing them selves as NICEIC approved. Yes they had been approved by the NICEIC to carry out domestic electrical work based on annual assessments but this does not make them fall into the approved contractors category. This was degrading my status as an approved contractor that required more hoops to jump through and more money (remember, approved contractor was first then came domestic installer) and i don’t believe they put the cost of approved contractor status up.


I cant really comment on your views regarding the NICEIC essentially creating their own rules as i haven't experienced this (or i have but haven’t realised) they simply have a list of requirements, but with regards for them promoting the idea that to get a 'proper' electrician, they have to be NIC registered, this is simply good business marketing!


I for one am glad there are several bodies to choose from otherwise the NICEIC would have the monopoly and god knows how much i’d be paying. But i cant understand why anyone would register with any of the others other than the ECA. No one has ever rung me and asked if i could go round and do some work “oh and by the way, are you approved with NAPIT” I do get asked if I'm an registered with the NICEIC. Lets not forget that the NICEIC did a lot to promote the introduction of part p, to the general public via adverts in papers etc...


I wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because its the path of least resistance? i dunno..


Prior to the introduction of part p did ELECSA exist and did they have an approved contractor scheme similar to that of the NICEIC or was ELECSA set up with the sole intention of accommodating the introduction of part p?


I appreciate that Dskelton has a gripe with the NICEIC and I have had reason to on a couple of occasions over the last 7 years but for different reasons to him/you.
My thoughts DSkelton, are go with option 3 if you can address the problems you have with the NICEIC and if you can bring your self to do it become an NICEIC approved contractor (hope thats not the equivalent to swearing at you) then do it!!


With the upmost respect... Dan

 

[JulianC]

Meh, am I the only one thinking £400+ per year is good value for a van sticker and to make sure I haven't forgot how to measure R1+R2 over the preceeding 12 months? :rofl:

 

[D Skelton]

Dan, if you read through my post (#53), you will see what most sparks gripes are with Part P. Engineer54 has expanded on that and sums the Part P argument up very well in post #56. Other than that, I think we have all made our points known about what we think of Part P in general and specifically what we think of the requirement under Part P to be 'regulated' by private, money grabbing, scumbag scam schemes.

Back on topic, in response to your argument regarding the difference between Approved Contractors and Domestic Installers, the NIC are fully entitled to make up off the top of their heads whatever terms or phrases they want to describe their electricians. My point is simply that no matter which way you look at it, they are all made up terms! These terms belong to the NIC and are used by only the NIC. Under Part P of the Building Regulations, (forgetting that you can go to LABC direct), to carry out most types of electrical work in a dwelling you have to be approved for self certification by a government recognised self certification scheme. This means that whatever scam scheme you're with whether it be the NIC, Elecsa, NAPIT, Stroma, Corgi, BSI etc... you are approved to self certify. Even if the NIC have branded you a domestic installer, whether you or they like it or not, legally speaking you are still approved by the NIC for carrying out self certification under Part P.

This is where my argument comes in. If the NIC want to make up terms for their sparks, that's their perogative, however I'm with Elecsa and I'm approved by them to self certify work in domestic dwellings, what I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector. This is one of the reasons I left the NIC because I begrudged having to fork out more money to be labelled by them as 'Approved' even though I was anyway! and as I said, I carry out work in other sectors so I didn't want to be described as just a domestic spark. Up until now with Elecsa, this has never been the case, because I like to believe that Elecsa know that they have no place whatsoever to be implying what sector an electrician is competent to work in. They know that the scope of Part P does not extend past domestic work, hence why I say again, you are either approved to self certify, or you are not, it's that simple.

The NIC it seems has now taken control of this Electrical Safety Register and is now branding electricians approved by another scheme as 'Domestic Installers'. This is in my opinion absolutely disgusting and for me typifies exactly what the NIC are about; Representing themselves as if they are the sole regulator in the electrical industry. Whether the NIC are good at marketing or not, I did not join Elecsa to be 'regulated' and have made up terms attributed to my business by the NIC!

You wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because it's the path of least resistance? Well for me, I hate all the scam schemes with every single fiber of my body! I just hate Elecsa a little less than I hate the NIC! For me, it's moral issue, it's got nothing to do with my level of experience, my amount of qualifications, or a lack of funds to pay the extra dosh for 'Approved Contractor' status.

You make the point that I should take option 3 and rejoin the NIC as an approved contractor, well this is all well and good but what happens if all Elecsa sparks did this because of the NICs behaviour? What if all Elecsa sparks joined 'the enemy' because we all had a 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' approach? Well that monopoly you worry about the NIC gaining might just start to become a reality! It's lose - lose for both us as Elecsa approved contractos and Elecsa themselves. If they dont sort this out, they lose their customers to the NIC, and we as electricians are stuck with the NIC and their inevitable monopoly driven price hikes!

BTW Dan, my bold font and exclamation marks don't mean I'm shouting at you, I'm just very angry at both Elecsa and the NIC and also very passionate about this subject

 

[Engineer54]

And we all know what monopolies mean don't we, ....Fee increases galore!!

By the way, ...what is the fee's now for being a NIC ''Approved Contractor''??