ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[D Skelton]

And we all know what monopolies mean don't we, ....Fee increases galore!!

By the way, ...what is the fee's now for being a NIC ''Approved Contractor''??

Too right!!! And last time I checked, it was £200 on top of your DI payment. I could be wrong there though, I haven't been on their website for a couple of years.

 

[Jonny66]

Well said MR Skelton, just deleted what I was typing......
Get rid of all this imposed labeling and rating of electricians based solely on what you've paid into a scheme.....
If the NIC, JIB, ECA were in the least bit interested in improving the ability of electricians and safety of installations etc etc, why not have a fully written proper exam like the old 2391, to say "your now an Approved Electrical Contractor" because you've passed this and have over 2 years experience, why not????? We know why, £££££!!!!!

 

[markc123]

How do markc123,


You started by saying “I have summed up whats bad about part p - plasterers fixing sockets and the like.” but this is whats good about part p. If a plasterer chooses to do some electrical installation work (domestic property only) he has chosen to break the law. This works in our favor does it not? Laws are in place and it will to some degree stop people from breaking them, granted, not always. Out of interest, if a plasterer was to buy a steel back box where still sells them with two adjustable lugs? I haven’t seen these type in my wholesalers for a long time but you describe the non earthing of back boxes as “unbelievable”. I believe that it is desirable but it often is not a necessity. Assuming that we have a modern metallic back box with 1 fixed lug and 1 adjustable lug then care must be taken because some socket-outlets have only one earthing strap and eyelet (mine have two). If this is the case you must be sure that the earthing eyelet is located at the fixed lug position, otherwise an earthing tail must be used. if you are still earthing back boxes then good on ya! but it is not a requirement! and IMHO it is not “unbelievable” not to.


I did NOT say that i signed off a Romanian tilers re-wires, he was asking me to sign it off, I said I would cost for re-wiring it, he explains he’s done it, I explain that ill re-wire it again and then he can have a certificate (i thought this was a good way to teach him not to touch electrics!!!!)


The other point you make about a gas man who has part p registered on the side of his van... correct me if i’m wrong, but part P is for compliance within a domestic property and assuming your caravan was in a caravan park why would you expect him to know anything about the height of a socket? this falls outside the scope of his work does it not? sounds like he was interested to learn and it is applaudable that he carries regulations around in his van.

Dan

To be fair, i actually apologise. I only half read this off my phone whilst on a job this thread and obviouslly didn't read it properly.

You raise some interesting points, and on second reading on a full screen you obviouslly know what you're talking about. The way you've described it, has in truth, probably made me less sceptical about the whole thing.

The only issue i have, and regards to the caravan park i was on about is that people take the PART P course at a local college then suddenly they think they can do an awful lot more they can do as regards to electrics and it annoys me - yes their breaking the law, but this will only come to light when something goes wrong, and until that happens (hopefully it wont) unqualified and uncompetent people are taking electricans work.

If there is a proper way of regulating it, so plasteres just fit the odd socket, or gas men just wire up the boiler then im all for it.

It needs alot more improvement IMHO.

Sorry for the earlier reply, abit of a bad day, and didn't mean to come across a grade A nobhead which on second reading i did.

Mark

 

[ayrshirespark]

My local council only accept niceic certs for works carried out on properties eg minor works which is a disgrace

 

[Jonny66]

Just out of interest, what law are people breaking by carrying out electrical work in domestic premises???? as far as I'm aware it is the responsibility of the homeowner to notify LABC.

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My local council only accept niceic certs for works carried out on properties eg minor works which is a disgrace

Take them to court then

 

[markc123]

I suppose they're not technically breaking any law, apart from the unstatuory common sense law.

I do not think its right people undertaking electrical work when they're not qualified.

Every electricians deserves more respect than they get, to become fully qualified and competent the proper way takes years of hardwork and endless exams, and everyone with the certs has my upmost respect because its not an easy journey....

....and then for people to come along as part p registered or qualified domestically after 10weeks really really annoys me.

Something needs to change, some law needs to be brought into force...i don't know what or how but something has to be done.

Think we're slightly straying from the OP here now.

 

[TaffyDuck]

Well I have been with ELECSA since 2006. Their website says that if I pass the assessment ( which of course I always have) that I am an Approved contractor. My assessment certificate states Approved Contractor and the letter I received the other day informing me of this exciting development clearly states that nothing will change.

It would appear however that despite many years experience and every qualification under the sun I have been demoted to a previously NIC invention of Domestic installer whatever the f*ck that is.

So in my humble opinion ELECSA are in breach of contract.

Have written this evening to ELECSA give them a shout too.

No doubt I will get a letter saying that if I pay another 200 quid I can continue as an approved contractor.

What a laugh.

If they dont sort this, I`m off to Napit or Stroma ( or whatever they are called)

 

[ezzzekiel]

*sorry ezzzekiel, no pictures I'm afraid so you may lose interest again

to be honest i never regained interest to lose it again.

partp has not worked and will not work while it is being used purely for raking in money.
a short example of just one issue.
Napit insist on holding 2391 testing qualification, however for a small fee rather than sit the industry recognised city guilds 2391 you can do napits own version na2391 which involves having as many goes as you can till you pass

just a random grumble but shows exactly what the scheme providers think of the industry - let anyone in and make as much money out of it as possible before it all comes crashing down.

 

[Jonny66]

The more we talk about this, the more you start to realise how ridiculous and farcical the whole registration thing is...if this was a story in a book or film you'd say "that's stupid I'd never falll for that"

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The more we talk about this, the more you start to realise how ridiculous and farcical the whole registration thing is...if this was a story in a book or film you'd say "that's stupid I'd never fall for that"

 

[Des 56]

This is to Dan (the Part P supporting man)

Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If anything the standards of both installation work as whole and certification is woefully inept

You have made defence of a system that I personally believe is destroying all the respect that was at one time the trade of electrician
The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics

You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
I will try and give that understanding,because I am not with the Niceic and never will be with them

This is why I will not be a part of that vile organisation

I am nearing the end of a lifetime working as an electrician,during that time,the trade was respected,it was attained with hard work both manually and in the classroom,it took many years to become skilled ( I wont use the word competent because it has been terribly abused by the scams)yes, I use the derogatory term,because it is well deserved

Electricians were skilled in most disciplines and could work in most. if not all sectors
The Niceic uses the QS system,there is little argument against that system in larger commercial and industrial installation where practicalities of the construction industry makes it acceptable

The Niceic undermined the training and status of electricans who work in the domestic sector by accepting a regulations exam and extra short self created and charged short courses, as suitable means of entry for its Domestic installer creation,this opened the floodgates to any Tom Dick Plumber or Tiler to replace once skilled electricians,after they were deemed competent by the Niceic

The other scams followed suit and the resultant mish mash of people now doing domestic installation is the result,along with the lower standards made inevitable by their actions

The most important abuse the shamed Niceic has done to the electrical industry is to perpetuate the shockingly abused Qualifying supervisor system for Domestic installation
Not only are they permitting a collapse of trade standards by creating this Domestic installer caper,but those untrained inexperienced Niceic "competent" installers can employ myriads of even less experienced un trained "others" to infest this industry supervised by the Tom Dick and Tiler companies

The Niceic exist as the major player in my industry,they are however an embarrasment to the industry,given that I care deeply about what they are doing,I would not join those clowns if were paid by them to do so,my own pride in being an electrican in what was once a well respected trade would not permit me to sell my soul to such enemies of this trade

You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it,I on the other hand could never follow suit

I will end with a question for you
Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence ?


I wonder if you are able to do answer yes given that Part P does not require competent individuals

 

[Jonny66]

There must be thousands of experienced and knowledgeable electricians around this country like yourself Des56 (and I use the term "electrician" as it should be defined), well where are you all?, you say you care about this industry, well it's the real electricians, like yourself, that should be stepping up and putting a stop to all this crap, speaking out with the knowledge you have.....

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Ayrshire spark you LA want shooting for that, I've just spent today re inspecting a flat after a NICEIC approved guy tried to rip a guy clean off with an eicr full of c3 codes and failed it on lack of brown sleeving.....he missed the gaping hole in the cut out fuse carrier

 

[Danspark]

Hi Des,


Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If I go to a property that has in the last 7 years had a new kitchen fitted I am now more likely to see that the extraneous conductive parts have been bonded and possibly had a consumer unit change along with appropriate certification and notification, why? because the kitchen firm are aware of the part P requirments and as a ruputable company wish to adhere to them. That said, I can still find myself going to a house that has had a new kitchen installed by the next door neighbor who was happy to have a go at the electrics himself. So, has it improved; yes, completely; no.


The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
This has been pointed it to me by Engineer54 regarding a 17 day 5 week course. I did not know (and will have a look another time) that this existed. Someone else has suggested (but i’m running out of time so can’t go back to look) that NAPIT (i think) do their own testing course over and over until you pass. I (slightly arrogantly) already had a dim view on NAPIT which is why I wonder why anyone that knows there onions would choose to enroll with them other than it being an “easy way in”


You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
To me the NICEIC was always a well respected voluntary regulatory body and one that i always wished my company to join. with the introduction of part p there were others that appeared such as NAPIT and again i just looked at them as not a comparative body. pre 2005 the local authority would insist that the electrical works on grants were done so by NICEIC approved contractors, although i was well aware of the existence of the ECA and i also new that the council would have to accept this along side the NICEIC but as enrollment and criteria were similar why not go for the regulatory body that had been established since 1956


You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
I think that this has become very clear Des, but as originally stated I thought it had gone SOME way to improve the industry for the conscientious electrician. Is it not a fact that less people are working on their own home electrics or less likely to ask a mate to do the work due to the various campaigns run explaining about the implications of Part P and what can and can’t be done.


However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it
I have not accepted any destruction, not if my findings are that jobs i arrive at are more likely to be better than they would have been pre 2005. how can that not be the case, there are a lot of electricians trying to do a good job and less of the mates doing a “favor” just because they are confident to do so.


Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence
I really want to answer this but wasn’t sure i understand where you are going with it? we should all support individual competence (The ability to do something successfully or efficiently) Part P does not require competent individuals? Part P is an electrical safety law of the Building Regulations so it requires compliance, which is where The regulatory bodies come in?


I clearly am in the minority, there are far to many of you that do not like Part P, what it stands for and the regulatory bodies surrounding it. I am glad that I spoke out in stating that I considered it to have done some good for the industry. However I don’t like the idea of people doing a short course and then being allowed to carry out electrical works. I am very proud of my work and it took me a long time to get where I am; I like things to be fair. Just like paying taxes, I pay my taxes but thats ok because we all have to pay our taxes just like I became accepting with the introduction of part P; we all had to comply! That said i did feel sorry for the likes of my dad who had been doing electrical installation works all of his life and then found himself having to go back to college (less accepting than me) but he got through it, worked for another 6 years and is now TRYING to enjoy retirement.


Markc123, no need for an apology, sorry you had a bad day.


although it is clear that not many (if any) agree with me that part p has “improved” the state of home electrics I really would like to know how many do agree... hey ho.


LlandrilloSpark; would you consider helping the customer by lodging a complaint about the report you just described. It was mentioned earlier by someone that if you do you will get nowhere. I’d ask that you follow the procedure correctly and out of interest let us all know the outcome
http://niceic.com/householder/complaints

D Skelton, Good luck with the letter/email

right, now i'm going to put my head back in my air law books and forget about the bashing from this thread. I trust that my difference in opinions doesn't get me the cold shoulder in any future posts.

Dan

 

[Jonny66]

I think this is becoming confused with compliance with the Building Regulations such as part P, rather than the competent persons schemes and how they behave....compliance with part P is usually guaranteed if compliant with BS7671. My problem and the problem of most, i believe, is the antics of the bodies set up to oversee self certification and how they have turned this into a pay and your in industry, rather than basing it on qualifications and experience.

Elecsa having now gone in with the ESC and NICEIC seem to have dropped the "approved to do domestic work" and adopted the NICEIC domestic installer approach. The only possible reason for this is to raise extra income in the future by charging electricians to have the "Approved " status, but what is this NIC Approved status?? Aproved to do what? conform to Building Regs?? conform to BS7671?? if so what is DI status?? nearly conforming??

 

[Danspark]

I think this is becoming confused with compliance with the Building Regulations such as part P, rather than the competent persons schemes and how they behave....compliance with part P is usually guaranteed if compliant with BS7671. My problem and the problem of most, i believe, is the antics of the bodies set up to oversee self certification and how they have turned this into a pay and your in industry, rather than basing it on qualifications and experience.

Elecsa having now gone in with the ESC and NICEIC seem to have dropped the "approved to do domestic work" and adopted the NICEIC domestic installer approach. The only possible reason for this is to raise extra income in the future by charging electricians to have the "Approved " status, but what is this NIC Approved status?? Aproved to do what? conform to Building Regs?? conform to BS7671?? if so what is DI status?? nearly conforming??

Hey,

ELECSA are part of the ECA group. ELECSA is a competent person scheme (cps) This scheme means that approved contractors are able to self-certify their work. This is required for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling. If ELECSA and the NICEIC are getting into bed together I don't think it will be long until ELECSA approved contractors or an electrical contractor approved by ELECSA have a name change, possibly ELECSA registered electrician or similar, in order to harmonies with the NICEIC’s approved contractors. They won’t want a conflict of terminology. Remember, an approved contractor with the NICEIC has nothing to do with being registered as a domestic installer and the two should not be confused (you gain domestic installer status free of charge with the NICEIC as you are considered competent due to the criteria of being an NICEIC approved contractor)

any the wiser? me neither.

Dan