Advice needed for less experienced electrician.

[Davisonp]

Hi,

I have been asked to move some plug sockets from the skirting board (they are too low and this causes problems plugging in equipment) to higher up the wall in a domestic property. I will be chasing in and fitting new flush mounted sockets.

I am after advice on the best way to proceed. There seems to be several options. If the cable under the floor is long enough to reach the new socket position, then there will be no need to extend any cables and no major problems, but if it is not long enough, what is the best method for extending it? NOTE: The cable is in good condition so a full rewire is not necessary due to deterioration as it appears to have been changed in the late 70’s or early 80’s.

To get to the new socket if the cables are too short, I had planned either to use Hagar Maintenance free junction boxes, with the idea of spurring off the ring under the floorboards and having a single new cable to the new sockets, or I could extend both legs of the ring by crimping each conductor then putting the joint in a “chock box” for strain relief and to enclose the uncovered insulation. What is the best practice for extending cables in this circumstance?

Also, I think the best option for the chasing in and putting in the back coxes may be to take my equipment into a room (with three or four sockets) and do them together, then move all the equipment onto another room or location and do another group of sockets in the area. Is this a good plan, or is there a better way to do this?

 

[Davisonp]

Going by what is being said, I think if you delve deeper into this one you could find a few more bits of trickery that wouldn't fill you with confidence. To me it's showing all the signs of there being no earth in the lighting circuits............and then you have to change the board as well now.............so your going to have to find a solution to the lighting etc etc..................and then you will be a bit panicky as you only went to move a socket............and now its a re-wire.


Maybe i'm being facetious but the customer will be thinking about procrastination if my outlook proves correct??

I was asked to do a condition report on the property. When the kitchen extension was added to the building, the lighting was re-wired so the lights do have earth, and a new consumer unit added with the lighting and kitchen ring supplied from this. I have been asked to move ALL the skirting sockets in the house (about 40 of them) up to the wall, chased in and flush sockets. It looks like the ring was re-wired before the extension (PVC PVC cable, stranded but no green goo so I guess in the seventies or eighties).

 

[Hobsoni]

Um, I think you might of mixed it up. The debate was about spurring a cable off a ring main junction box, I was enquiring from a theoretical stand point would this be classed as any different from spurring off a ring main socket OR spurring off a ring main circuit breaker. I can't say I have ever been in a scenario when I had to spur more sockets than what was on a ring main??

TBH, it was bloody ages since I wired a ring main. 4mm radial circuits are the way forward for me

 

[sparks1973]

well in an ideal world then by all means test from the C/U ....but time and time again we have to face the fact that people just will have that cupboard built around C/Us with no thought given to accessability....
mad really....

 

[DPG]

Ah, I read it as each point was a junction box on the ring, with the socket coming off on a single t&e. Daz

 

[Davisonp]

the state of the existing cable`s insulation will be dependant on age and how much fault its been subjected to over time....
so a good giveaway would be to inspect the fuse carrier for that circuit....
if theres loads of splash in it....or evidence of numerous disconnections....you may find the IR comes back low.....
this is of course not cast in stone but its often a giveaway....

There is no obvious sign of problems in the fuse carrier, and the client is not experiencing any issues. They have never changed a fuse and have been in the property for seven years.

 

[Hobsoni]

I was asked to do a condition report on the property. When the kitchen extension was added to the building, the lighting was re-wired so the lights do have earth, and a new consumer unit added with the lighting and kitchen ring supplied from this. I have been asked to move ALL the skirting sockets in the house (about 40 of them) up to the wall, chased in and flush sockets. It looks like the ring was re-wired before the extension (PVC PVC cable, stranded but no green goo so I guess in the seventies or eighties).

Nice one mate. 40 sockets in a house........... Must be a nice sized house they have themselves.

Penny has dropped why your in a dilemma now as well pal, if I had potentially 40 sockets to extend, I would definately be re-wiring the majority of them. I'm sure you have looked into the possibility of access to re-wire some of the ring mains? How many ring mains do they have for that amount of sockets?

 

[Davisonp]

No, the board is so old the main switch just cuts the live conductor. The Neutral remains attached to the incoming neutral.

 

[sparks1973]

Maybe I'm misunderstood, but I didn't think an RCD solely being fitted was a satisfactory way of overcoming a circuit with no cpc's? If in the regs it does state this, then i must apologise to a certain Mr.......... who I made sure had earthing installed as well as an RCD.

Ultimately, your name is on there to sign off the said works...........If your not confident, then you don't do it. However, we all have to start somewhere............i agree with sparks1973...........slap 4mm protective earth cable in rather than the smaller CSA's that would probably suffice.

its a minimum of 4mm CSA as it wont be installed as part of a cable and thus doesn`t enjoy any protection (grey sheath, PVC serving etc)...

 

[Hobsoni]

Ah, I read it as each point was a junction box on the ring, with the socket coming off on a single t&e. Daz

from the post i have just replied to, you might be right! lol

 

[sparks1973]

sounds like the client may have pressured the O/P into saving the install....and just upgrading the C/U and the height of points served etc to an acceptable level....
have you conducted any preliminary tests here?
i mean whats your Ze like..(definately the first thing you do upon pre-inspection)
you need to IR test the existing stuff (before dismantling the system)
an R1 R2 will tell you whats what as far as the CPCs are concerned.. (in fact method 2 would be a better way here)
preliminary testing will tell you lots about the install (as is)...and anything that will need sortin out (before you procede with the C/U change
it may be that you have a `shared neutral` here....if so then you will have RCD issues straight away....

 

[Hobsoni]

sounds like the client may have pressured the O/P into saving the install....and just upgrading the C/U and the height of points served etc to an acceptable level....
have you conducted any preliminary tests here?
i mean whats your Ze like..(definately the first thing you do upon pre-inspection)
you need to IR test the existing stuff (before dismantling the system)
an R1 R2 will tell you whats what as far as the CPCs are concerned.. (in fact method 2 would be a better way here)
preliminary testing will tell you lots about the install (as is)...and anything that will need sortin out (before you procede with the C/U change
it may be that you have a `shared neutral` here....if so then you will have RCD issues straight away....

I agree with you sparks1973. I can tell that you (like many others) have learnt this through experience. Get all the facts and info you can beforehand.

Whats that saying Proper Prior Planning Prevents.............

 

[Davisonp]

Nice one mate. 40 sockets in a house........... Must be a nice sized house they have themselves.

Penny has dropped why your in a dilemma now as well pal, if I had potentially 40 sockets to extend, I would definately be re-wiring the majority of them. I'm sure you have looked into the possibility of access to re-wire some of the ring mains? How many ring mains do they have for that amount of sockets?

Slightly over estimated from memory. 12 double sockets and one single socket all in the skirting on the first floor ring, and 13 double sockets all in the skirting on the ground floor ring. The kitchen sockets (which I included in the 40 sockets) are not in the skirting but nicely positioned and recessed into the wall.

 

[sparks1973]

I agree with you sparks1973. I can tell that you (like many others) have learnt this through experience. Get all the facts and info you can beforehand.

Whats that saying Proper Prior Planning Prevents.............

but don`t forget of course that you have a `duty of care` to a client.....this includes not employing scare tactics in order to dupe the unsuspecting into having unneccessary works carried out.....
not the case here i suspect...

 

[Hobsoni]

Ahh, I see.

Quick Question: On your post it says 'less experienced electrician'..............you seem to know what your talking about. I wouldn't say you seem inexperienced?

I tell you, I'm 25 yrs old............worked as an apprentice went to college got qualified, worked as house bashing and started on larger contracts. At 25, most electricians would say i'm 'inexperienced'............but balls to that. Experience is gained from doing the same thing over and over again. Once you have done it (correctly lol), you have done it!

Thats not to say I don't learn new things everyday, I think the trade is so diverse that no-one can ever truly master all aspects of the industry??

Just me thinking out allowed.

 

[sparks1973]

Ahh, I see.

Quick Question: On your post it says 'less experienced electrician'..............you seem to know what your talking about. I wouldn't say you seem inexperienced?

I tell you, I'm 25 yrs old............worked as an apprentice went to college got qualified, worked as house bashing and started on larger contracts. At 25, most electricians would say i'm 'inexperienced'............but balls to that. Experience is gained from doing the same thing over and over again. Once you have done it (correctly lol), you have done it!

Thats not to say I don't learn new things everyday, I think the trade is so diverse that no-one can ever truly master all aspects of the industry??

Just me thinking out allowed.

more sense than some in here....