Advice needed for less experienced electrician.

[Davisonp]

Hi,

I have been asked to move some plug sockets from the skirting board (they are too low and this causes problems plugging in equipment) to higher up the wall in a domestic property. I will be chasing in and fitting new flush mounted sockets.

I am after advice on the best way to proceed. There seems to be several options. If the cable under the floor is long enough to reach the new socket position, then there will be no need to extend any cables and no major problems, but if it is not long enough, what is the best method for extending it? NOTE: The cable is in good condition so a full rewire is not necessary due to deterioration as it appears to have been changed in the late 70’s or early 80’s.

To get to the new socket if the cables are too short, I had planned either to use Hagar Maintenance free junction boxes, with the idea of spurring off the ring under the floorboards and having a single new cable to the new sockets, or I could extend both legs of the ring by crimping each conductor then putting the joint in a “chock box” for strain relief and to enclose the uncovered insulation. What is the best practice for extending cables in this circumstance?

Also, I think the best option for the chasing in and putting in the back coxes may be to take my equipment into a room (with three or four sockets) and do them together, then move all the equipment onto another room or location and do another group of sockets in the area. Is this a good plan, or is there a better way to do this?

 

[Davisonp]

sounds like the client may have pressured the O/P into saving the install....and just upgrading the C/U and the height of points served etc to an acceptable level....
have you conducted any preliminary tests here?
i mean whats your Ze like..(definately the first thing you do upon pre-inspection)
you need to IR test the existing stuff (before dismantling the system)
an R1 R2 will tell you whats what as far as the CPCs are concerned.. (in fact method 2 would be a better way here)
preliminary testing will tell you lots about the install (as is)...and anything that will need sortin out (before you procede with the C/U change
it may be that you have a `shared neutral` here....if so then you will have RCD issues straight away....

The client has asked me to do a condition report, and asked me whether the house needs re-wiring. I have handed in the condition report and told them that the circuits attached to the newer consumer unit are in good condition (no shared neutrals, I did check) but I could not confirm the condition of the ring mains and boiler spur until I could get access to the circuit and run the tests. However, from a visual inspection of the cable, there are no obvious problems.
The problem is that with the old consumer unit (3 circuits remaining) having a main switch that only disconnects the live supply, and having no access to the cables without damaging the consumer unit, I cannot run any tests for shared neutrals without ripping the lid off the consumer unit, and then I have to change it anyway.
A Similar problem exists when testing from the back of a socket. I cannot test for shared neutrals, or IR between neutral and CPC, so all I can realistically do is end to end continuity and R1+R2 tests. If there are shared neutrals, it is only between these three circuits (downstairs ring, upstairs ring and boiler radial), so until the problems are traced, these circuits can be placed under the same RCD, thus solving the shared neutral problem temporarly.
I would be surprised if there was a shared neutral problem on the rings as the kitchen extension and lighting rewire has been wired correctly, so there are only these three circuits.

I am trying to get my head around the options for the socket move’s as it is a question that will come up very soon after the CU change.

It sounds like I should be preparing the client for a full or partial rewire when the sockets are moved.

 

[Hobsoni]

more sense than some in here....

I find it disturburbing that there are so many qualified lads out there who have no confidence in what they do. Honestly, I fitted into the same bracket........I'm not quite sure where it stems from. I don't think this Part P crap exactly installs confidence for lads in the trade either, because (and this used to happen to me) you would have Barry Bathroom fitter telling you about lights in a bathroom and it makes you question yourself, needlessly.

'At the end of the day, the shower is installed in the F**KING WET Zone and guess what it's electric!'

And if i told you some of the standards internationally...............you would cringe!!

 

[Hobsoni]

The client has asked me to do a condition report, and asked me whether the house needs re-wiring. I have handed in the condition report and told them that the circuits attached to the newer consumer unit are in good condition (no shared neutrals, I did check) but I could not confirm the condition of the ring mains and boiler spur until I could get access to the circuit and run the tests. However, from a visual inspection of the cable, there are no obvious problems.
The problem is that with the old consumer unit (3 circuits remaining) having a main switch that only disconnects the live supply, and having no access to the cables without damaging the consumer unit, I cannot run any tests for shared neutrals without ripping the lid off the consumer unit, and then I have to change it anyway.
A Similar problem exists when testing from the back of a socket. I cannot test for shared neutrals, or IR between neutral and CPC, so all I can realistically do is end to end continuity and R1+R2 tests. If there are shared neutrals, it is only between these three circuits (downstairs ring, upstairs ring and boiler radial), so until the problems are traced, these circuits can be placed under the same RCD, thus solving the shared neutral problem temporarly.
I would be surprised if there was a shared neutral problem on the rings as the kitchen extension and lighting rewire has been wired correctly, so there are only these three circuits.

I am trying to get my head around the options for the socket move’s as it is a question that will come up very soon after the CU change.

It sounds like I should be preparing the client for a full or partial rewire when the sockets are moved.

At the end of the day mate, YOUR the professional. Don't let the thought of them having extra work done put you off standing your ground. These Tw*ts will be the first people to point the finger at you if something goes wrong.

If it was me, i'd say rip it out or get someone else. We already know the installation is dated, they got half of it done (skimped on full re-wire) so time to put the other half right. Trust your instincts, but more imporantly remember your the qualified technician here.

Sorry, i have had about 3 red bulls today.

 

[sparks1973]

well i know that some of the standards in lets say america are dicy to say the least.....and testing doesn`t go anyware near the depths that we do here....
and as far as `barry bathroom fitter`..lol.(i like that)...barry bathroom fitter is concerned....he just wants to stick to what he knows.....sticking pre-formed shower trays to the floor and toilets..
lets not forget the kitchen fitters as well...(who know all there is to know about how to bodge electrics)....

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At the end of the day mate, YOUR the professional. Don't let the thought of them having extra work done put you off standing your ground. These Tw*ts will be the first people to point the finger at you if something goes wrong.

If it was me, i'd say rip it out or get someone else. We already know the installation is dated, they got half of it done (skimped on full re-wire) so time to put the other half right. Trust your instincts, but more imporantly remember your the qualified technician here.

Sorry, i have had about 3 red bulls today.

it may be though that the cables are good for continued service....

 

[Davisonp]

Ahh, I see.

Quick Question: On your post it says 'less experienced electrician'..............you seem to know what your talking about. I wouldn't say you seem inexperienced?

I tell you, I'm 25 yrs old............worked as an apprentice went to college got qualified, worked as house bashing and started on larger contracts. At 25, most electricians would say i'm 'inexperienced'............but balls to that. Experience is gained from doing the same thing over and over again. Once you have done it (correctly lol), you have done it!

Thats not to say I don't learn new things everyday, I think the trade is so diverse that no-one can ever truly master all aspects of the industry??

Just me thinking out allowed.

I agree entirely.
Started training in collage in Feb 2011. Now working on getting NVQ level 3, but when I passed exams, I realised I had a very good understanding of how electricity works, and a reasonably good understanding of the current regulations, but no real experience of good practice or common practice, and I realised that the DIY side of the business was as important as the actual electrical theory Eg. How to get a cable from A to B is as much part of being an electrician as knowing how to connect it and what size the cable should be.

It is in that area that I am still very inexperienced. Good with theory, still a very steep learning curve on practical things.

 

[Dave 85]

If it were me, and they wanted every socket moved, and there weren't the slack on the existing cable then I are be rewiring that ring every time! Prolly be quicker and more properer job than a bleeding crappy old 70's ring with about 50 Wago boxes on it.

 

[Hobsoni]

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it may be though that the cables are good for continued service....[/QUOTE]

Like.

Just maybe? lol........i got a bit carried away with the thought of 'Barry Bathroom Fitter'.........makes my blood boil!

All jokes aside, your right the cable may well be fit for purpose. having said that if you had say 25-30 sockets to move, how many would you quite happily extend before considering running new cables?

I'm not sure I would like to extend 10 cables, me personally. In this scenarion anyway.

 

[Hobsoni]

I agree entirely.
Started training in collage in Feb 2011. Now working on getting NVQ level 3, but when I passed exams, I realised I had a very good understanding of how electricity works, and a reasonably good understanding of the current regulations, but no real experience of good practice or common practice, and I realised that the DIY side of the business was as important as the actual electrical theory Eg. How to get a cable from A to B is as much part of being an electrician as knowing how to connect it and what size the cable should be.

It is in that area that I am still very inexperienced. Good with theory, still a very steep learning curve on practical things.

Route planning.........that definately comes with experience and so does pricing. If you don't mind me asking, is this a career change or did you go straight to college from school?

I also really enjoyed the theory side, I want to take up a HNC course........if work gives me a chance too!!

 

[sparks1973]

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it may be though that the cables are good for continued service....

Like.

Just maybe? lol........i got a bit carried away with the thought of 'Barry Bathroom Fitter'.........makes my blood boil!

All jokes aside, your right the cable may well be fit for purpose. having said that if you had say 25-30 sockets to move, how many would you quite happily extend before considering running new cables?

I'm not sure I would like to extend 10 cables, me personally. In this scenarion anyway.[/QUOTE]well...i suppose that if they`l pull...and their good for continued service...then all good....but i agree.....you don`t want so many joints like that.....

 

[Hobsoni]

If it were me, and they wanted every socket moved, and there weren't the slack on the existing cable then I are be rewiring that ring every time! Prolly be quicker and more properer job than a bleeding crappy old 70's ring with about 50 Wago boxes on it.

Totally agree.

 

[GarryJ]

For the small extra cost it would be i would find two legs of the ring and if you can get below without too much trouble just rewire them. You can walk away from a good job with stupid joints in places

 

[Davisonp]

Route planning.........that definately comes with experience and so does pricing. If you don't mind me asking, is this a career change or did you go straight to college from school?

I also really enjoyed the theory side, I want to take up a HNC course........if work gives me a chance too!!

Career change.
28 years as a computer programmer, but with no recognised qualifications. Replaced by a younger version in Manila and no one interested in me. There are loads of Handymen round, so I switched to a career that cannot be done remotely, and set about getting the qualifications as and invest in the next 20 years career.

 

[Hobsoni]

Career change.
28 years as a computer programmer, but with no recognised qualifications. Replaced by a younger version in Manila and no one interested in me. There are loads of Handymen round, so I switched to a career that cannot be done remotely, and set about getting the qualifications as and invest in the next 20 years career.

Well, at least you have a trade that no-one can take away from you. With a computer programming background, you must be a bit of a dab hand with PLC's and such too.

Good on you mate.

 

[sparks1973]

well...at least you have the fallback onto PCs as well.....
strange times these..

 

[Davisonp]

Like.

Just maybe? lol........i got a bit carried away with the thought of 'Barry Bathroom Fitter'.........makes my blood boil!

All jokes aside, your right the cable may well be fit for purpose. having said that if you had say 25-30 sockets to move, how many would you quite happily extend before considering running new cables?

I'm not sure I would like to extend 10 cables, me personally. In this scenarion anyway.

well...i suppose that if they`l pull...and their good for continued service...then all good....but i agree.....you don`t want so many joints like that.....[/QUOTE]

I think it sounds more and more like a rewire of both rings. I had hoped that I could get away without taking up their carpet and floorboards (tried taking up carpet and it is not easy to move) but I don’t think there will be any alternative.
Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to find out if there is enough cable to move the sockets without a rewire without damaging some /many sockets (unless I take up the floorboards to investigate, which may be worth a look)
We will have to see if the customer is going to be happy with the extra cost or if they decide to leave the sockets where they are for now. If they do leave the sockets, then it is simply change the consumer unit, carry out the testing I was not able to do with the old unit in place, fix any new problems and the other problems found during the inspection (Broken fittings Etc.) then leave them to it.

Thank you all for the advice.