AM2 Lighting

[Knobhead]

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
There is an equal risk in a three plate system.

#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
If you look at my drawing there are three conductors between each switch point. How many in a conventional system. There is a way to get around that and use T&E but I’m sick and tired of shared neutral threads.

#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)
So you don’t know what you’re doing! I’ll bet you only run radials for sockets!


Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.
Where does it state this is BAD practice?


As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

BTW
I don’t advocate neutrals at switches unless there is a reason.
I answered the OP question with a drawing in “good faith!”

 

[Silly Sausage]

Ns in switches has had a few threads over the last year or so.
At first, I was a bit skeptical, but after reading those discussions, it makes perfect sense to me (depending on the situation).



Still waiting for the reasonS why it's 'Bad Practice'!

 

[Marvo]

I know the norm in the UK is the supply is looped through each light fitting but I'm not sure why it's such an emotive issue. We generally loop the supply through the switches but I'd use either system depending on mainly which was easier to install in that particular building. Apart from that the two systems seem swings and roundabouts regarding all the other pro's and con's.

 

[KAS1]

Give me strength..................................

 

[Wolfie708]

1)I am failing to understand why it is bad practice... how do you install downlights/wall lights?
2)If there will be a few cables in the box, a deeper box can be fitted to make sure everything fits without "squashing".
3) It makes for easier testing.

And, normal T&E sleeved if needed has been used for many, many years. The only time i have come across red/brown feed and lives is in conduit wiring.

Can you explain why it isnt? Can you also explain how you would install downlights/wall lights?


As far as i can see, there is absolutely no valid reason why the neutral cannot be dropped into the switch. Easier testing, easier to install additional lighting, easier to connect up the lighting.

#1 Personally I do not use T+E for wiring a lighting circuit. I use Brown/CPC and double covered Blue, but regardless of what I use, a wall light can easily accomodate either, and a down-light should always have a seperate joint box used anyway (the little plastic clip boxes they typically arrive with are useless and I just bin them lol)

#2 On a new build I agree with you, but a lot of re-wires have single brick walls that are not very helpful when trying to chop in a 35mm or deeper box

#3 Maybe a personal choice, but experience has taught me which is better for me (I am 44 btw so have just a teensy weensy bit of experience lol)

It has also been known for over-sleeving to fall off and not be put back on for years. Just because something has been done and is allowed does not mean it is the 'right' way to do it.

On the subject of making it easier to add lights, you then have to take into account that you will be added a 4th (maybe more?) neutral to a connector that is actually designed to accept one incoming and one outgoing conductor (unless you are talking about a connector that utilises a 'clamp' and not typical screw arrangement?)

There are many reasons, but the simplest one of all is that it IS bad practice as you are creating the risk of a bad joint where there is no need for one at all.

 

[Silly Sausage]

There are many reasons, but the simplest one of all is that it IS bad practice as you are creating the risk of a bad joint where there is no need for one at all.

Hahahahaha....brilliant!!!!

Please explain how making a joint in one place could possibly worse than in another place???? :smilielol5:

 

[Wolfie708]

#1 Incorrect as a 3 plate ceiling rose is specifically designed for the purpose, a connector is not.
#2 There should Never be 3 conductors in one terminal. Simple as...... If it is wired correctly you will only have 2.
#3 Do I really have to answer this one?..............
#4 The reasons have been given, if you choose to ignore them (and insult me lol) then that is your choice not to listen.

 

[Wolfie708]

Hahahahaha....brilliant!!!!

Please explain how making a joint in one place could possibly worse than in another place???? :smilielol5:

Sighs..... I actually thought there would be Decent electricians in here

To answer your question though, one is a specifically designed connection in a fitting that has had to pass regulations to be produced, the other is a 'jerry rigged' joint for a lazy person.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Ns in switches has had a few threads over the last year or so.
At first, I was a bit skeptical, but after reading those discussions, it makes perfect sense to me (depending on the situation).



Still waiting for the reasonS why it's 'Bad Practice'!

and you`l be waiting a long time n all archy....caus there isn`t....
and whats all this i read about `testing being more difficult`...and other shyte like that...

 

[Wolfie708]

Just out of curiosity, did any of you that think connecting neutrals in a switch is perfectly all right, work on the KC Waterfront job in Huddersfield?

If you did it certainly explains a lot.

 

[Marvo]

#1 Incorrect as a 3 plate ceiling rose is specifically designed for the purpose, a connector is not.
#2 There should Never be 3 conductors in one terminal. Simple as...... If it is wired correctly you will only have 2.

Thanks Wolfie, at least you have some reasons that can be debated and I can assure you that the Huddersfield job was nothing to do with me .

I can see you may have a valid argument that three or four wires in a choc block connector might not be ideal, especially the cheap ones where the screw tightens directly onto the wires but any suitable Wago or Line connector shouldn't be a worry with multiple wires in it.

 

[Outspoken]

Pretty much sums up your last few posts on the matter. The best reason you've managed to come up with is that people might switch the neutrals but I'm still at a loss to see how it would be more likely than with any other installation method.

You're right, I live in Africa where we don't have regs and I do need more experience with complicated electric systems like domestic lighting but I'm a qualified plasterer and a professional forum moderator so I've seen plenty of light switches and I'd like to think I can understand the merits and pitfalls of different wiring schemes if you could explain them in words of few syllables and avoiding technical terms.

So back to the question of why it should be outlawed......

Marvo, I would strongly urge you to stop at this point. SA does in fact have electrical regulations, I am sure I could make a few phones calls and get any number of SAFA sparks that I know here in the UK on this forum to tear your comments to bits as they are some of the most professional sparks I have met in recent years. If you statement that you are in fact a plasterer and not a spark is true then you should not eneter into this discussion except as a mod to ensure it maintains civility and no-one breaches forum rules..

 

[Silly Sausage]

OK, inspection of joints aside, which methods would you classify as being acceptable?

Butt crimps, terminal block, ceiling rose....the list goes on!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

that's exactly how i've just drawn it. using brow/black for strappers and grey ( slevved blue) for N.

caus thats how it should be.....and how many times do we see the black being used as the neutral.....it should be the grey...as you says tel.....

 

[Jay Sparks]

I will always try and "loop in" at the light but I've also done it at the switch!! I can see no REAL reason why not!!! But like I said, I always try and do it at the light!!

I can see the point of it being easier to test if the neutral is at the switch....especially if the circuit is protected by an RCD!!