Are you still fitting plastic CUs......

[Lazlo]

or have you begun to install metal re:amendment 3...

 

[Leesparkykent]

Definitely! Try and get as many names on it as possible, it's not much to ask for it to be made clear.

 

[Knobhead]

There seems to be a large number against this new regulation..
Does anybody have any figures as to the number of objections prior to its introduction?
Pethaps it should have never been introduced and also why don't we start a petition to get it scrapped

Get it organised, it would be your first useful input.

 

[Engineer54]

There seems to be a large number against this new regulation..
Does anybody have any figures as to the number of objections prior to its introduction?
Pethaps it should have never been introduced and also why don't we start a petition to get it scrapped

Your time would be much better spent organising a petition for a Registry for Qualified Electricians!!
Shame no-one did anything when these Part P Scam providers were created, and i expect exactly the same apathy for this relatively unimportant issues of domestic metal/plastic CU's!!


Getting your priorities right, would be a great start!! lol!!

 

[Octopus]

I've sent Keith an email via the contact address at Beama - be interesting to see if he responds!

So here is the content of his reply:

"Thank you for making contact with BEAMA.

My first inclination is to say "don't shoot the messenger" as it is not BEAMA (the manufacturers association) who write the Regulations - we are but one small voice in a room of many stakeholders, incidentally including representation from the Electrical Contracting community (inc. ECA, NICEIC, NAPIT and SELECT).

Believe it or not, things could have been far worse if some individuals on the drafting committee had got their way!

In terms of where we go from here, we are now into a transition period that ends on 31st December 2015, giving everyone time to interpret the regulation, manage inventory and ensure that skills are aligned to ensure that the intent of the regulation (enhanced fire protection) is not compromised or replaced by other risks.

As alluded to earlier, this regulation is not a creation by the manufacturers, more so it a consensus of opinion from many stakeholders, including ECA, Electrical Safety First, NICEIC, NAPIT, SELECT, Chief Fire Officers Association, IET and many other learned bodies.

Just one final point before I close, whilst the big sheds may well continue to sell consumer units to 'anyone', they do have a legal responsibility to market products that are 'fit for purpose' and should products fall through this first net then a Part P qualified competent person is be required to install and /or sign-off the installation - at which point compliance with 421.1.201 will be required.

Personally I have been to the 'coal face' on many occasions and unfortunately seen far too many of the consequences behind the intent of this regulation.

On which subject, I am sure that there is more to come by way of measures to ensure that cables are prepared and terminated correctly.

Good to exchange with you.

Best regards"

Cobblers is my first thought. Virtually all the businesses mentioned in the text above have something to GAIN financially by agreeing to this change.

 

[Knobhead]

Cobblers is my first thought. Virtually all the businesses mentioned in the text above have something to GAIN financially by agreeing to this change.

Fully agree.

 

[Peter J Wrench]

Hi I thought this worth a read:
Consumer units - IET Electrical

 

[Octopus]

Fully agree.

It would seem I have got the attention of the chap at BEAMA, so I've asked him why they haven't taken steps to improve the quality of the components, nor "returned" to 2 screw fixings per terminal, or improving the strength of the busbar etc etc.

 

[Pete999]

It would seem I have got the attention of the chap at BEAMA, so I've asked him why they haven't taken steps to improve the quality of the components, nor "returned" to 2 screw fixings per terminal, or improving the strength of the busbar etc etc.

Fully agree with the points you make

 

[GB.Kayak]

The ammendment 3 course said material that would 'self extinguish' after being exposed to a direct flame. I am sure there will be something out there more pleasing to the eye than metal that will achieve this.

In order to be 'self-extinguishing', a CU has first to catch fire, that is combust! It is therefore not incombustible and NOT BS 7671 Amd 3 compliant! That is not to say that an individual with suitable experience may not make a sensible risk based judgement and continue to install plastic CUs. Their insurers may not cover them if an incident subsequently occurs and the courts may or may not find them in breach of their professional responsibilities if the incident is serious enough for the courts to be involved. I think we are getting far too 'heated', pun intended, over the perception that Amd 3 is a sleight on professional competence or misguided action to mitigate the ever decreasing standards of Electrical Trainee or 17D trained 'installers'. Rather than, having read, and participated in the debate as informed people asking ourselves and giving our customers the information that they need to make an informed decision. In my mind that decision is whether, if our CU or that which we install in our customers' house was put to a real 'fire test' would we want it to prevent the fire spreading:


- from outside the enclosure into and through the wiring system and hidden voids of the house OR
- out from the CU into the space that surrounds it which, in many installations, is often beneath an escape route for people or access route for the emergency services who would provide aid if a fire was blazing!


Furthermore, we should seriously consider the vested interest of the firemen and there is a clear moral component to that as well, as there is to the support of cables in ceiling voids. Having asked and pondered the question, the decision in my view should be down to us as professionals to balance our conscience with our wallet, for the latter read 'survival to continue in our vocation'.


It may be that history will prove that the brief dalliance with thermoplastics as containment for electrical switchgear and electrical connections was a foolish one driven by designer appeal and profit margin. The benefits of thermoplastics are that they melt and in that state can take up a wide variety of shapes limited only by a designers imagination and the toolmakers ability to produce a tool to replicate that shape and still get the cooled component out of the mould. They are made from long-chain hydrocarbons, in other words fuel! Add heat and oxygen and they burn! You 'cannae change the laws of physics' as Scotty coined the phrase. Take away heat, oxygen or fuel = no fire. Plastic enclosures to the relevant standards probably all comply on this basis. Take away the 960 Deg C glow wire and within 30 seconds they cease to burn! They may be 'modified' chemicals to 'self-extinguish' but lift their temperature above their ignition point and they burn. Unfortunately, if the heat input continues they continue burning becoming a melted heap of burning plastic which is likely to ignite other 'fuels' in the vicinity.

 

[GB.Kayak]

...My 1/8th copper plate,water-laser profile cut,tig welded DB's will be available,and on sale from March.

They come in two finishes,"polished and lacquered",or for the period property,"verdigris".

Say goodbye to £150 DB swaps,with the best product,Dragons Den have ever seen...:conehead:

I have a better idea ... 'swords into ploughshares' job ... the country will not be able to afford any more of BAeS', Boeing's or LM's products before long so superplastic formed and diffusion bonded (SPF DB) titanium for me. It was good enough for the SR-71 @ speeds of ~ Mach 3.5, keep the fire well contained! Unfortunately, conduction of heat in metals is likely to be a problem either eventually igniting something outside or inside the enclosure eventually.

 

[Engineer54]

Said it before and i'll say it again, Countries like Germany, France, Holland etc etc use plastic based CU/DB's almost exclusively throughout their electrical industry, far more than that of the UK, so why haven't they had similar instances/numbers of fires caused by such enclosures, and why aren't they being included in this LFB influenced crusade to ban Plastic CU/DB enclosures via harmonisation??

Me thinks because they can't see or have any problem with the present Plastic/ABS type enclosures that meet the current standards, and probably laughing their heads off at the IET proposals....

 

[Pete999]

Said it before and i'll say it again, Countries like Germany, France, Holland etc etc use plastic based CU/DB's almost exclusively throughout their electrical industry, far more than that of the UK, so why haven't they had similar instances/numbers of fires caused by such enclosures, and why aren't they being included in this LFB influenced crusade to ban Plastic CU/DB enclosures via harmonisation??

Me thinks because they can't see or have any problem with the present Plastic/ABS type enclosures that meet the current standards, and probably laughing their heads off at the IET proposals....

Do they have short course sparkies on the continent? maybe they don't have the same skill problems we have, only saying

 

[Engineer54]

Do they have short course sparkies on the continent? maybe they don't have the same skill problems we have, only saying

No they DON'T, all electricians need to hold a minimum recognised trade qualification and is i believe a ''Legal'' requirement!! Most Western European countries and i'm thinking mainly but not exclusively here of Germany and France that have state sponsored apprenticeships for both school leavers and adult students that meet the education criteria...

The UK is the ''ONLY'' country that has these ridiculous short course electrical tradesman courses that legally allows incompetent persons to carry out electrical work for profit. You'd have to go way down the line to Third World Countries to find anything comparable with what you'll find in the UK...
Oh, and that's a hard and cold Fact!!

 

[Pete999]

No they DON'T, all electricians need to hold a minimum recognised trade qualification and is i believe a ''Legal'' requirement!! Most Western European countries and i'm thinking mainly but not exclusively here of Germany and France that have state sponsored apprenticeships for both school leavers and adult students that meet the education criteria...

The UK is the ''ONLY'' country that has these ridiculous short course electrical tradesman courses that legally allows incompetent persons to carry out electrical work for profit. You'd have to go way down the line to Third World Countries to find anything comparable with what you'll find in the UK...
Oh, and that's a hard and cold Fact!!

I thought as much, maybe that's the reason they haven't had these ridiculous restrictions forced on them, and are still able to use plastic enclosures.

 

[Octopus]

It would seem I have got the attention of the chap at BEAMA, so I've asked him why they haven't taken steps to improve the quality of the components, nor "returned" to 2 screw fixings per terminal, or improving the strength of the busbar etc etc.

So 1 week ago I sent him:

"Keith

I appreciate your candid response and openness.

The quality of fuseboards has progressively dropped over the last 20 years and now they are so flimsy, and I'm not just referring to the, completely flimsy cases, it's the quality of the main switches, the mounting bars, the MCB's the RCBO's - this is what needs fixing.

Introduce a requirement for main switches to have 2 screws per terminal would be a step in the right direction and that coupled with improving the "strength" of the busbar for the MCB's and RCBO's would be good too.

My point remains that you can improve the case BUT ignoring the internal components and in some cases dangerous workmanship is not dealing with the problem."

and 1 week later - no response - so I've sent it to him again with the following:

"Keith

1 week on and no response.

I must say I'm disappointed that you've not responded, but your members have financial gains to make from these new farcical rules so I'm not surprised.

If you google this, you'll see that this is on the web being discussed, and to say the"industry" isn't impressed is a bit of an understatement."

I'm not holding my breath for a response.