Been told my install is dangerous! Is it? (with pic)

[cable_guy]

Hi all,

I'm new here, so hi!

I know nothing about electrics, but am thinking of selling my house and I'm hoping someone can help me please.

A couple of years ago I had my electric shower fixed, and in doing so the electrician saw my main install and said that he shouldn't really touch it as it's too old. Don't think he was trying to con me as the electric shower was an insurance job so he knew he wasn't going to get any money out of me etc......

Does this look like I should get it upgraded please?

If so, any idea how much it'd cost me to do?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[nickblake]

Well the bad news is yes it does need upgrading , there is a wooden frame of the back of this type of CDU (fuse box) these can be a fire hazard if a fualt developes within the board , looking at it it has and old style RCD these were fitted normally to a TT system but were discontinued in a change to the regs in the mid 80's ,to main things that will be missing is RCD protection and Bonding to water and ony other services get a spark to give you a price for upgrading especially as your going to sell , i wouldnt say its dangerouse just out dated .according to the lable on the cut out its a TNCS system (PME) so earth should be ok

 

[cable_guy]

Well the bad news is yes it does need upgrading , there is a wooden frame of the back of this type of CDU (fuse box) these can be a fire hazard if a fualt developes within the board , looking at it it has and old style RCD these were fitted normally to a TT system but were discontinued in a change to the regs in the mid 80's ,to main things that will be missing is RCD protection and Bonding to water and ony other services get a spark to give you a price for upgrading especially as your going to sell , i wouldnt say its dangerouse just out dated .according to the lable on the cut out its a TNCS system (PME) so earth should be ok

Thanks Nick, I can now at least sound like I know a bit of what I'm talking about when I ask for quotes!

Is there anywhere on this forum I can ask what I am likely to be charged for this work so I know whether or not the quote seems reasonable please?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The 'old style RCD' is a voltage operated earth leakage circuit breaker....no longer an acceptable means of earth fault protection...(they are now so old and unreliable it may not even work if you get a fault)....no alterations or additions could be carried out to the installation with this in place.

 

[Des 56]

The system you have is of a voltage operated trip with a wylex fuse board and at a guess a TT (earth ROD)

There are people around who will look at fuse board and proclaim " thats not permitted" that is usually a load of tosh

However,the voltage operated trip is a long overdue obsolete type and is highly recomended that it is replaced with an rcd

An rcd by its nature,is much more sensitive to installation faults than your elcb
It would not be wise to just change that item without first determining whether there were installation faults that could upset this Rcd ( You coulkd just go for it,but that is not a wise decision)

When the shower was installed,part of that work shpuld have involved upgrading of our earthing and bonding if required,that would need checking also
Because he did not install an rcd,I would be cautious about relying on him having checked these items

In a nutshell,installations such as yours can only be guessed at without a hands on visit by a spark
You may have very little that needs attention,on the other hand,you may have such things as lighting circuits with no earth in the cable,
Whatever condition your electriucs are in,it does not require that you make it comply
Sold as seen is the by word there

Most estate agemts and the like,think that if there is a shiny new consumer unit,the electrics are fine,that is utter total nonesense,but they believe it
If you want to impress the agent,install a new consumer unit and make it magically become a new install
If you want do nothing
If you want,go for safety then install an rcd and get earthing amd bonding seen to

 

[NEsparky]

Just one point i would add to nickblake's 100% correct answer is regarding the earth what he ment to say was as it is a TNCS system the Incoming earth should be adequate.

But I am concerened that I can not see any sign of an earth cable any where in the photo near the cut out, this is possible but unlikley if done correctly.

So i would recommend you get a trust worthy electrician to check it sooner rather than later.

Jim

 

[devon1]

cable_guy, just start a new threat something like, 'price required for CU change' and i'm sure you'll get some quotes.

old RCD
Obsolete Chilton earth leakage circuit breaker


How does an VOELCB work?

VOELCBs work by connecting what is usually called the ‘earth wire’ (officially ‘the circuit protective connector’) of the final circuits to the main earth terminal via an electrical coil within the device. If enough current leaks from the ‘live wire’ (officially ‘phase’) to earth, it will produce a sufficiently high voltage across the coil to trip the isolator mechanism.

This automatic operation relies on three significant assumptions:
• That any leakage current passes to a circuit earth wire (or conduit, metal cable sheath, trunking, etc.) and not to earth via any other electrical conductor, such as a person
• That the earth wire or ‘circuit protective connector’ is continuous up to, and through, the VOELCB
• That the main system connection to earth at the consumer’s service board (and earthing rod, if relevant) is adequate and intact
If any of these is not the case - or even worse, if both are wrong - then the system can be lethal. VOELCBs are therefore no longer approved by the IEE Wiring Regulations .

What are the approved alternatives?

For earth leakage protection, the Regulations now recommend the use of a residual current device (RCD), which detects earth leakage by comparing live and neutral currents and disconnecting the circuit if they are different. Any difference implies some fault connecting live or ‘phase’ to earth.

A VOELCB can be recognised as follows:
• It has a On/Off toggle switch and a Push to Test button (like an RCD)
• It has two earth wire connections (an RCD has none)

Any surviving VOELCB (voltage-operated device) should be replaced with an RCD (residual current device) under the guidance of a qualified electrician. Otherwise people may be at risk, and it is highly likely that the insurance cover of your job will no longer be effective.

 

[alarm man]

Thanks Nick, I can now at least sound like I know a bit of what I'm talking about when I ask for quotes!

Is there anywhere on this forum I can ask what I am likely to be charged for this work so I know whether or not the quote seems reasonable please?

post where your from and get some quotes off the lads on here,2 birds one stone

 

[cable_guy]

wow, thanks for the indepth responses, I'm very very grateful. I think I want to get it upgraded even if it's just for my own piece of mind. I've not spent much on my house and although I'm not bothered by a "shiny fuse box" etc, I'd prefer to know that i'm safe.

The sparky that fixed the electric shower mentioned "around £200" to upgrade it, if I was to ask him formally for a quote though he said he'd have to have a proper look. I'm tempted to put a tender out on RatedPeople.com you see to get a price for that and some other bits and bobs I want doing (I have a plug socket which gives me an electric shock whenever I use it, I would like an electic heater/light above my bath (!) removed and replacing with recessed celiing spotlights, and ceiling spotlights to replace my normal light in my bedroom)

If it's not the right forum for me to ask for your opinion on prices here, I'm sorry and I'll take it off straight away.

 

[cable_guy]

post where your from and get some quotes off the lads on here,2 birds one stone

Stoke on Trent.

thanks.

 

[nickblake]

Hi NE sparkey the main earth looks like its comming from the left of the cut out appears to be black ,over the years i have found this to be quite common with the install of that age incorrect i know but

 

[eskimo39]

Hi Cable-Guy there was a discussion recently about what people charge for a CU change & Earthing upgrade. The prices ranged between £400-£600 if I remember correctly. However keep in mind that it a 'best case' quote. A good electrician will do a few basic tests before commencing work and will be able to advise on if it will be a straight forward change or if circuits need upgrading etc.

Just looking at the pictures it looks like no earthing or bonding present. Can you see a green & yellow cable anywhere around your consumer unit?? Also do you live in a built up area or are you in a quite rural area??

I am not sure if it could be worth contacting your energy supplier in regards to upgrading your main incoming feed & earthing arrangement. Has anyone on here any experience of that??

 

[NEsparky]

Possible nick but i would suggest if you look realy hard i think that its a twin and you can just see it pass the top corner of the cut out fixing board and continue down the celing.

But hey im sure it wouldnt be the fist time either us have traced a cable wron.

Jim

 

[nickblake]

thats true jim , it could even be a TT as des had mentioned but looks like a PME lable of the cutout hency my responce , best bet on this is to get loads of quotes to see what the best price is , one thing that may be of concern is : i hate to mention ,VIR , black rubber cable .

 

[cable_guy]

thats true jim , it could even be a TT as des had mentioned but looks like a PME lable of the cutout hency my responce , best bet on this is to get loads of quotes to see what the best price is , one thing that may be of concern is : i hate to mention ,VIR , black rubber cable .

whats bad about that? is it expensive to replace?