Breaker not tripping

[bensk]

Hi Everyone,

I have been asked to install a cooker and hob built in one (total load 15kw ish), the customer has already 6mm installed from previous cooker so i changed the breaker to 32A b type (I hope this is okay?) and explained that it might trip if he is using the whole oven and all hobs which he is fine with. However we decided to test the breaker out so once installed we turned all hobs on and cooker but the breaker does not trip?? I was confused by this as I expected the breaker to trip, so I measured with my amp clamp and it was showing 47a going through and still not trip?? Can someone please explain or comment if you know why the breaker is not tripping as it's of big concern to me.

Thanks for reading.

 

[kingeri]

MCBs will not immediately trip when their rated current is exceeded. A 32 amp B-Type will take 47 amps for quite some time before tripping. Its all in BS7671, unfortunately it's too early for me to put my cornflakes down and give you the page numbers!

 

[stevethesparks]

BYB page 325. Approximately about 40 minutes. However, the 47 Amps wouldn't have been constant due to cycling of the cookers elements.

 

[Simonslimline]

Edited post.

 

[Simonslimline]

I would be more concerend as to why they got yourself to carry out this work. No offence intended but it seems perfectly clear that you are out of your depth. Electricity is not guess work and is lethal.


EDIT- I see you are an improver. Maybe get access to the trainee section. Lots of good helpful people in there.

 

[telectrix]

@ OP. what was the previous MCB rating? how is the 6mm cable installed. i.e.ref. method?

 

[bensk]

Hi it was 40A type B and about 5m under floor boards and then chased in wall to worktop height for the cooker isolator switch. I didnt know the MCB could take upto 45 mins before tripping?! could not this be enough time to damage the cable??

Thanks again for replies!

 

[bensk]

@ OP. what was the previous MCB rating? how is the 6mm cable installed. i.e.ref. method?

40A B type, and the 6mm cable is under floor boards for about 6m and then chased in wall upto work top height to the cooker isolator switch.

So if the breaker can have upto 47 amps going through it for 40 minutes without tripping isn't that enough time for the cable to be damaged?!


Thanks for your replies too.

 

[telectrix]

no, the cable rating allows for short term current in excess of it's rating. e.g. if BS7671 gives a value of 45A (6mm cable) then that value assumes constant load of 45A. 20% -30% above that for short periods is within the limits of the cable. obviously, if cable derating factors are applied, the current capacity will be lower., but a short term excess is allowed for . so you can see from MCB curves in app. 3 of 7671, that a MCB will withstand 1.45 x In for about 1 hour. this also means that the cable will handle it as well.

 

[Midwest]

Whole chapter on it in BS7671, chapter 43, don't ask me to explain it all, though.

By the way, think 40amp mcb for 6mm cable (depanding on exactly what type of cable it is), is somewhat pushing the design envelope.

Found this little discussion; IET Forums - help with understanding cable overload calculation please

and a JW video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBYHtBPbBJE

 

[hightower]

OP your profile has you listed as level 3 trained - how've you managed to pass a level 3 qualification being oblivious to how devices operate, pretty sure this is covered at level 2

 

[Midwest]

OP your profile has you listed as level 3 trained - how've you managed to pass a level 3 qualification being oblivious to how devices operate, pretty sure this is covered at level 2

It would depend on his age. If it was anything like my training at 16, I was more interested in the evils of the flesh, than protection against overcurrent. Shame I couldn't revisit my training, I would be a lot more riveted, if you excuse the pun!

 

[Davisonp]

BYB page 325. Approximately about 40 minutes. However, the 47 Amps wouldn't have been constant due to cycling of the cookers elements.

If you saw my post before editing, I was wrong. I got the wrong lines in the diagram and my label for 40 Amps is in fact 60 Amps, it looks like the original 40 minutes is correct.

 

[hightower]

Have I got it wrong?
The time/current chart for B type 60898 breakers says the 32A MCB should trip at roughly 100 seconds for 50Amps, or 200 seconds for 40 Amps. That makes it a maximum trip time of 4 minutes, not 40.

View attachment 32130

You're reading the graph wrong me thinks

It would take 70a to trip a 32a breaker in 100 seconds

 

[Davisonp]

You're reading the graph wrong me thinks

It would take 70a to trip a 32a breaker in 100 seconds

Spotted that as soon as I posted it, I was looking at the line beyond the 40A MCB curve as being 40 Amps, where it is actually the 60 Amp line.

 

[KoFi]

oh My gosh this type of question is a daily occurrence on and off the forum
basics which should be bread and butter scary!Surely part of the training to know where to look for mcb ratings trip times and how to calculate this.
If a surgeon was asking for basic advice would you go under his knife??

we had a guy call us for employment he had 17th etc on paper qualified sparks
just a few flaws he had never been on any site and did not own any tools whatsoever needles to say he is still collecting his stars at Mc D's!

 

[DPG]

oh My gosh this type of question is a daily occurrence on and off the forum
basics which should be bread and butter scary!Surely part of the training to know where to look for mcb ratings trip times and how to calculate this.
If a surgeon was asking for basic advice would you go under his knife??

we had a guy call us for employment he had 17th etc on paper qualified sparks
just a few flaws he had never been on any site and did not own any tools whatsoever needles to say he is still collecting his stars at Mc D's!

Neither has anyone till they get their first break though. Daz

 

[KoFi]

Neither has anyone till they get their first break though. Daz

My how the industry has changed In the good old days the break through was when you started as a apprentice after obtaining a job in the electrical sector(based on exam results ) where you put the academic side of things into practice side by side.
Your tools (basic needs to carry out the task) were provided from day one of which you paid weekly till you owned them outright.
The craft and skill & passion has gone!you cannot be truly qualified without the hands on site experience simple.Not getting at any newbies to the trade I blame training set up.We have a young(really good) apprentice just coming out of his time now when he came to us he did not have great experience but one of the ingredients he did posses was Passion to the job.my two pennies worth rant over
:whatchutalkingabout

 

[hightower]

My how the industry has changed In the good old days the break through was when you started as a apprentice after obtaining a job in the electrical sector(based on exam results ) where you put the academic side of things into practice side by side.

I've got to disagree with you wholeheartedly - not everyone knew what they wanted to do when they left school, and making the change later in life is the first chance some people get at making a go at something they really want.

The craft and skill & passion has gone!

As for the "craft and skill" being gone, I've seen some pretty dodgy work carried out by time-served sparks, and some pretty spectacular carried out by Electrical Trainee. As for the passion being gone - I disagree with that the most. I work 40-hour weeks full-time, then maybe another 10-15 hours in the electrical industry every week, added with 6 hours per week spent at night college, and every spare minute I get reading other technical books, or searching this place so I can learn as much as I can. Okay, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I left school, but I'm fortunate enough to have found out in time to do something about it. But your comment is nothing short of a sweeping statement, and tarring me (as well as others I know who work just as hard) with that brush displays nothing but closed mindedness. And it's that sort of attitude, that elitist snobbery, that the industry could do without in my honest opinion.

 

[KoFi]

going off topic so here please

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...-nerve-new-thread-re-breaker.html#post1184813

 

[davesparks]

Neither has anyone till they get their first break though. Daz

But if they don't even have any tools they are unlikely to get that break!

 

[DPG]

Yes fair point about the tools. Daz

 

[Midwest]

But if they don't even have any tools they are unlikely to get that break!

Seem to remember when I started for a biggish local company, I had 3 tier cantilever toolbox, pair of snips, pair of pliers, hammer, couple of screwdrivers and a hacksaw, jack pooh else. Hardly comprehensive, someone gave me a job. Leap in the dark for them, or they knew they could make a tidy sum out of me towards the end of my apprenticeship, charging for an electrician for apprentice pay. Things always work both ways.

 

[ipf]

I've got to disagree with you wholeheartedly - not everyone knew what they wanted to do when they left school, and making the change later in life is the first chance some people get at making a go at something they really want.



As for the "craft and skill" being gone, I've seen some pretty dodgy work carried out by time-served sparks, and some pretty spectacular carried out by Electrical Trainee. As for the passion being gone - I disagree with that the most. I work 40-hour weeks full-time, then maybe another 10-15 hours in the electrical industry every week, added with 6 hours per week spent at night college, and every spare minute I get reading other technical books, or searching this place so I can learn as much as I can. Okay, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I left school, but I'm fortunate enough to have found out in time to do something about it. But your comment is nothing short of a sweeping statement, and tarring me (as well as others I know who work just as hard) with that brush displays nothing but closed mindedness. And it's that sort of attitude, that elitist snobbery, that the industry could do without in my honest opinion.

Sorry HT, I know your keen and no doubt work your ****s off but put things into perspective. In some cases your getting into issues way out of your depth. We all know of 'dodgy' work by time served sparks, I've been coming across them for the last 40 odd years. The way the trade has depreciated since the millennium, though, is beyond comprehension. In your current position, as a trainee, do you think you hold the experience and knowledge to comment on the electrical industry as a whole (craft and skill).
We all have our opinions and are entitled to think as we wish but experience of the way things were previously is a must if a comparison is being made.
By the way. I'm not being in the slightest bit snobbish or elitist. If someone can do the job to the required standard, I will employ them, if required.

 

[hightower]

In some cases your getting into issues way out of your depth.

You are probably right, but forgive me, there's a whole area dedicated to trainees, as well as the prestiged trainee badge. I'm learning a new trade mate, and if I wasn't getting out of my depth I wouldn't be doing very well at learning it would I? The past 18 months I've been out of my depth - that's how you learn. I'm not sure what else you expect of me?

The way the trade has depreciated since the millennium, though, is beyond comprehension. In your current position, as a trainee, do you think you hold the experience and knowledge to comment on the electrical industry as a whole (craft and skill).

Too true, I don't have the experience to comment on the electrical industry as a whole. But I wasn't born yesterday either, and just because I've only been training for 18 months doesn't mean I can't carry valid experiences and observations from other parts of life. The electrical industry isn't the only one to change over the past X amount of years.

Now, let us not forget. If the electrical industry really is on its knees, or changed for the poorer, exactly which generation is it that has made those changes and allowed it to happen? The answer, it seems to me, is the exact same generation that bangs on about it "not being like it used to be". I know one thing, it certainly wasn't my generation - I'm just trying to get on with the rules laid out in front of me.