Brexit. We’re out!

[telectrix]

Here we go again...

Right... if you look at what the drivers are for local council expenditure, you'll see that it's mostly people based. I.e. if you have more people, the council's expenditure will go up. It has NOTHING to do with the value of your land. If you are able to park your political ideology to one side for a brief moment, you'll see that the most sensible approach is some sort of headcount based tax or you might call it a poll tax.

agreed, and look what happened when Thatcher introduced it. poll tax meant that a family of 4, all working, had to pay more than a widowed pensioner, which is right, it was the large families who had been getting away with low rates for years that protested, when they were the biggest drain on the council resources.

 

[baldelectrician]

I know how you feel but I do not believe private schools should have charitable status.
If all schools had it I would be ok with it but that is not the case.

Land value tax would be an alternative to rates,
it would mean large estates owned by corporations would pay much more and people in less well off areas would pay less.
This coukd be tied in with a local income tax at day 3% , people could pay the higher of the 2 ( capped)

 

[telectrix]

Land value tax would be an alternative to rates,
it would mean large estates owned by corporations would pay much more and people in less well off areas would pay less.
This coukd be tied in with a local income tax at day 3% , people could pay the higher of the 2 ( capped)

your argument is basically flawed. council funded services, e.g. Police,Fire,Bins emptied,Road Repairs, Education etc. are used by people, not land. Let them what use it, pay for it. poll tax is the answer.

 

[baldelectrician]

Local income tax or land value tax is easier to admisister
the poll tax is less fair as it affects young low paid workers such as apprentices where a local income tax is fairer as low paid people are below the threshold

Land value tax is also easier as you cannot hide land and such a tax will require people who own land to provide ownership proof.
If you know who owns the land you can send them a bill

 

[electric al]

Local income tax or land value tax is easier to admisister
the poll tax is less fair as it affects young low paid workers such as apprentices where a local income tax is fairer as low paid people are below the threshold

Land value tax is also easier as you cannot hide land and such a tax will require people who own land to provide ownership proof.
If you know who owns the land you can send them a bill

The low paid and young use the services just the same . You are promoting a two tier system and that doesn't scream fairness exactly. Sounds like the politics of envy infact

 

[baldelectrician]

The low paid and young use the services just the same . You are promoting a two tier system and that doesn't scream fairness exactly. Sounds like the politics of envy infact

So are you saying that income tax is a two tier system then?

Tax should be incremental, proportionate and fair- a local income tax does just that, although I prefer a land value tax as properties do not move and it's easier to administer (like rates)

 

[electric al]

So are you saying that income tax is a two tier system then?

Tax should be incremental, proportionate and fair- a local income tax does just that, although I prefer a land value tax as properties do not move and it's easier to administer (like rates)

Income tax is another discussion my comment was in regard to your proposal for a land value tax .
As Tel said , "services are used by people not land "

 

[Zerax]

There is no such thing as "fair"... so please stop using that term. Your view of what is 'fair' could be totally different to what someone elses view of 'fair'.

For example... if every person pays the exactly the same amount... that's fair ! Nobody is paying more, or less than the next person. Everyone is being treated equally.

But that's not fair !! I hear you scream. Because a young electrical apprentice paying £50 will hurt him alot more than say the local GP paying £50.... so lets replace the flat rate with a percentage... everyone pays 1% of income... but that's not fair either, because some people will pay alot more...

Then we have the little old lady, who lives on her own in the large old family house with a large garden. She puts out ½ a bag a rubbish every other week, is religious about recycling, never gets in trouble with the police, doesn't have kids in state school etc. etc. Is it 'fair' that she pays more "local taxes" than a family of 7 with overflowing refuse bins, 5 kids in school, the police being called out every other week, the father in and out of prison etc etc...

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

 

[static zap]

Total fairness can be achieved with 100% monitoring.
(and an even bigger bill for operating it)

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

... how would crime operate then ...
-We would all crack up living in a theoretic perfect world- (1982 ?)
Never mind drunk and disorderly -
there would be a fine for a loose shoe lace.

 

[littlespark]

Total fairness can be achieved with 100% monitoring.
(and an even bigger bill for operating it)

... how would crime operate then ...
-We would all crack up living in a theoretic perfect world- (1982 ?)
Never mind drunk and disorderly -
there would be a fine for a loose shoe lace.

Did you mean Orwell’s 1984?

 

[static zap]

Did you mean Orwell’s 1984?

Cheers
I stand corrected
..not that I've remembered the plot ... Lost in many ways !

 

[andyb]

There is no such thing as "fair"... so please stop using that term. Your view of what is 'fair' could be totally different to what someone elses view of 'fair'.

For example... if every person pays the exactly the same amount... that's fair ! Nobody is paying more, or less than the next person. Everyone is being treated equally.

But that's not fair !! I hear you scream. Because a young electrical apprentice paying £50 will hurt him alot more than say the local GP paying £50.... so lets replace the flat rate with a percentage... everyone pays 1% of income... but that's not fair either, because some people will pay alot more...

Then we have the little old lady, who lives on her own in the large old family house with a large garden. She puts out ½ a bag a rubbish every other week, is religious about recycling, never gets in trouble with the police, doesn't have kids in state school etc. etc. Is it 'fair' that she pays more "local taxes" than a family of 7 with overflowing refuse bins, 5 kids in school, the police being called out every other week, the father in and out of prison etc etc...

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

Of course, there's such a thing as fair, we may not agree on what is fair but that doesn't mean there can't be a fair system. If everyone was to pay the same amount, how much more in tax would you be prepared to pay before you used the word 'unfair'? Because trust me you'd have to pay a lot more.

Same with the next paragraph, how much more would you be prepared to pay? Your little old lady still has the same bin lorry coming to her with half a dozen bin men on board, they use the same road as your family of 7. She may not be a problem for the police, but she'll soon be on the phone to them if she has intruders. As an old lady she's more likely to need the NHS.
The people who look after her, empty her bins, maintain her road etc would of had an education pad from taxes.

I could go on but I think you get my drift.

 

[telectrix]

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

Of course, there's such a thing as fair, we may not agree on what is fair but that doesn't mean there can't be a fair system. If everyone was to pay the same amount, how much more in tax would you be prepared to pay before you used the word 'unfair'? Because trust me you'd have to pay a lot more.

Same with the next paragraph, how much more would you be prepared to pay? Your little old lady still has the same bin lorry coming to her with half a dozen bin men on board, they use the same road as your family of 7. She may not be a problem for the police, but she'll soon be on the phone to them if she has intruders. As an old lady she's more likely to need the NHS.
The people who look after her, empty her bins, maintain her road etc would of had an education pad from taxes.

I could go on but I think you get my drift.

yes but under the rates system, the little old lady was paying twice as much as the family of 7 combined with only 10% of their income.

anyway. the last few posts are way off topic. brexit, we're out ... YYYYYippppppeeeeee.

 

[Midwest]

I don’t know much about taxation, except as a poor pensioner I‘m paying too much tax, and I’ve always have done.

And if I won zillions on the National Lottery, I’d still be pee’d off paying off too much tax then. That’s if I stayed. Might emigrate to Scotland, the land of milk and honey, if Krankie‘s dream comes true. He he.

 

[andyb]

anyway. the last few posts are way off topic. brexit, we're out ... YYYYYippppppeeeeee.

I'm pleased for you, I really am.
When you get a moment to spare you must tell us how your life has improved because of it.
[automerge]1581530645[/automerge]

And if I won zillions on the National Lottery, I’d still be pee’d off paying off too much tax then.

If you won zillions you'd have no need to pay tax if you so choose MW. Just take from your pension pot up to the tax threshold, put your zillions into an account that pays no interest and draw down however much you want. No Tax. Of course whoever inherits what's left of your fortune will have to pay inheritance tax, but if that upsets you just leave it all to me, I'll be more than happy to pay it.