C2 issues? Consumer Unit & Circuit forms a Figure of 8 Rather than a complete RFC?

[LEighLeigh]

Please help, just had a domestic EICR undertaken, a C2 issue: Consumer Unit does not meet minimum I.P rating, what does this mean and how do I check this out? how expensive to rectify? thanks!

 

[Dartlec]

Can someone put me out of my misery..... I've seen no outgoing N tail from a meter before, but never no incoming N tail.
Where is the supplier side N incoming meter tail? And what is that short loop out and back to the cut-out doing?
Sorry if I'm being thick!

View attachment 100706

having zoomed in a bit, I think that maybe a Henley block on top of the cut out extending either L or N. I'm guessing the other tail is there but hidden in the photo? Maybe behind whatever that shield is under the meter that I can't read...

Either that or the EICR missed rather an obvious problem!

 

[LEighLeigh]

It sounds like the two moved sockets would be a good candidate to start investigating then!

It might be a fairly simple fix (It's possibly just a simple case of connecting wires up differently behind the two sockets.) it's just that often the time set aside for testing doesn't allow things like this to be confirmed or corrected.

Although as @westward10 points out, it should either have been coded as a confirmed "figure of eight", or FI with a description of what the issue is that needs to be checked (presumably poor or inconsistent continuity tests).

From the horses mouth: -

"If the report shows that remedial work or further investigation is required, as set out above, landlords must complete this work within 28 days or any shorter period if specified as necessary in the report. Landlords must then provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days."​

Which is yet another example of the poorly written legislation - as technically it doesn't say that the person that carries out the remedial work must be competent.

However, ALL electrical work should be carried out by someone competent, as required by other general legislation - You also need to be able to prove in future that the work has been carried out competently, so a certificate or invoice rather than a hand written note from a handyman is advisable in anything electrical.

With an FI, it can be tricky to decide what remedial work is required though without further testing. It's likely that just replacing the MCB with a 20A without that further testing isn't guaranteed to resolve the issue.

Do you have the test results page, as that might throw a little extra light on the issue.

I do, see attached !

 

[timhoward]

having zoomed in a bit, I think that maybe a Henley block on top of the cut out extending either L or N. I'm guessing the other tail is there but hidden in the photo? Maybe behind whatever that shield is under the meter that I can't read...

Either that or the EICR missed rather an obvious problem!

The Henley block makes sense. Thanks, it just caught my eye and looked wrong.
Assuming the installation works (!) it must be there somehow...unless the TNS is into the N bar....!
It must just be the photo angle, surely!

 

[SparkyChick]

Can someone put me out of my misery..... I've seen no outgoing N tail from a meter before, but never no incoming N tail.
Where is the supplier side N incoming meter tail? And what is that short loop out and back to the cut-out doing?
Sorry if I'm being thick!

View attachment 100706

The cut out is connected to the meter using a security cable set... I believe it's split concentric and essentially presents the line and neutral as metal pins out of the top of the block under the meter with the white label/red writing. At the service head end, they come in various flavours I believe... the one in the picture has a neutral tail coming out the top... for more modern service heads which present a flat top surface, it's very much like the meter end... metal pins spaced appropriate for the service head.

Usually installed with pre-payment meters I believe to try and prevent tampering and bypassing by completely blocking off all the terminals that could be used to bypass the meter.

 

[Dartlec]

I do, see attached !

Thanks.

Doesn't greatly throw more light sadly.

the r1, rn, r2 columns should have been completed IMO, even if it was to show no connectivity (>99.9 kOhm for example, depending on the meter).

Looks like that socket circuit supplies the whole house, presumably including the kitchen, so downgrading it to one 20A radial is likely not a good idea, unless there is very little use of kitchen appliances.

Ideally, the fault would be found and the ring resurrected. Failing that, it might be possible to split into two 20A radials.

With that few sockets and good access, I would have thought that a couple of hours would be enough to fully identify the problem and the best solution.

The tester may already have the information to correct the fault, so worth seeing what they quote for it.

I would certainly seek other quotes for the work if you think they are

I would not say that a new consumer unit was necessary (though it would add some benefits), so no reason the legally required remedial work needs to be too expensive.

 

[LEighLeigh]

anyone know what the worst case scenario fix would be? rewire?

 

[Dartlec]

anyone know what the worst case scenario fix would be? rewire?

To get a satisfactory EICR, then I'd guess the worst case might be a new length of cable between two sockets.

It's more likely to be a case of either rejig cables behind an existing socket, or possibly blanking off one and disconnecting part of the circuit.

Unless the cable is very old (older than 1970s) or physically damaged, then a full rewire shouldn't be needed and nothing on the bits of the report we've seen would suggest that there are inherent issues.

There would certainly be benefits in splitting the socket circuits into more than one circuit (say one for kitchen, one for rest of house), but that's a different issue to getting a satisfactory EICR.

 

[LEighLeigh]

To get a satisfactory EICR, then I'd guess the worst case might be a new length of cable between two sockets.

It's more likely to be a case of either rejig cables behind an existing socket, or possibly blanking off one and disconnecting part of the circuit.

Unless the cable is very old (older than 1970s) or physically damaged, then a full rewire shouldn't be needed and nothing on the bits of the report we've seen would suggest that there are inherent issues.

There would certainly be benefits in splitting the socket circuits into more than one circuit (say one for kitchen, one for rest of house), but that's a different issue to getting a satisfactory EICR.

thank you so much, really appreciate the reply

 

[pc1966]

Downstairs recently there was a 'false wall' put in which sits 2 inches in front on the old wall, two sockets had to be moved, now one doesn't work.

That most likely explains it, and I bet it was the builder and not an electrician that did the sockets.

Also it should be fixed anyway, as anyone in the propery is going to have deep suspicions of the soundness of the electrics if they find stuff that is not working as expected.

I think the sockets do cover the kitchen, but not entirely sure. I'll try and get a picture of the CU tomorrow.

As above, if it is basically the whole house then your best+cheapest plan is to have the RFC restored to good operation.

If doing it from scratch most would put in a separate circuit for the kitchen given it has the majority of heavy electrical loads in most cases.

So by law I guess I do have to have a competent person undertake the FI too

Simple logic would dictate that someone who is incompetent should not be doing electrical work!

However as far as meeting the regulations and protecting yourself are concerned you would need the resulting remedial work to be done by someone professional who can test and certify the resulting repairs.

 

[pc1966]

anyone know what the worst case scenario fix would be? rewire?

@Dartlec has covered most of the points.

The only remaining issue is the poor IP rating mentioned. Some pictures of the CU showing top/sides/bottom should help folks here advise if it can be fixed without a new CU by patching any holes or fitting cable glands.

Worst case is it has a massive hole due to a hammer-style cable entry point being created and so needs replacing. But if done reasonably well originally it might just be the top has cables with grommets that allow too much entry, and they can be replaced with a better seal.

 

[pc1966]

Just to add the ratings for IP protection are covered by:

• regulation 416.2.1 for most areas at IP2X which basically is 12.5mm to prevent finger access, and;
• regulation 416.2.2 for accessible top surfaces at IP4X which is 1mm access. Basically so if folks leave crap on the top of things it does not drop in to the enclosure.

The 1mm limit on the top is one often violated by open grommets, etc, that are otherwise safe from fingers.

 

[LEighLeigh]

Thank you again for all of the replies, very useful. In terms of the RFC he did mention that it was continuity, so reading through the comments it sounds as if the builders that moved the two sockets (one of which doesn't work) perhaps rewired them up incorrectly and I'm guessing this has caused the failure in relation to that C2 in which case hopefully an easy fix. The C2 on the CU, I can confirm there are certainly no 12.5mm gaps, the top surface I'm not sure, it's possible there is a 1mm gap I suppose, shame I don't live near the property. The shower light fitting not being IP rated for Zone 2 environments, I guess that just needs doing.

 

[pc1966]

Overall it sounds like it will not be too expensive to fix. You can start by getting an estimate from the original electrician for the remedial work and if unsure then get another quote or two.

Also you can post it here for comments but with any personal information redacted (like the name/address for yourself, the electricians, or the rented property).

 

[LEighLeigh]

Overall it sounds like it will not be too expensive to fix. You can start by getting an estimate from the original electrician for the remedial work and if unsure then get another quote or two.

Also you can post it here for comments but with any personal information redacted (like the name/address for yourself, the electricians, or the rented property).

that's really useful, thank you!