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Got a customer refusing to pay additional for an spd, its in luton which i believe is known for lightning strikes .
Customer just wants me to install new standard bg board.
Normally, i wouldn't make a fuss, but because its in a lightning zone, im thinking if its mandatory. Or could i put it down as a departure.
 
An SPD is generally as necessary as an RCD, if a customer said I dont want to pay for an RCD board would you fit a board with no RCD's?

What an absolute load of rubbish.

So the chance of losing 5k worth of gear is just as important as risking direct contact in a garden or bathroom with, say, bs3036 or 60898 protection?

I think priorities need sorting, here.
 
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Anyone saying they have never heard of any equipment being damaged by surges - you probably wouldn't even realise. Any faulty device could have been affected by a surge.

Also, sometimes people seem fixated on direct lightning strikes. Of course an SPD won't protect against this, but it may well protect against the induced peaks on the mains caused by such a strike.

A company once tried to cost-down their product by removing some of the lightning/surge protection components. What happened? Well, they started getting more products returned as faulty. Faults caused by surges.
Aye, seen loads in industry. Plenty of machines in printing, for example, come with special supply units, or call for external spd protection.
 
I like this type of debate/argument as it tends to flush out the sort of detail that is often overlooked.

My very limited experience of this subject was based on a rural, overhead TT supply, where a combined Type I/II device would have been required to provide appropriate protection and unfortunately cost was such that no reasonable argument could have been made in its favour.

Having watched SPD prices reduce since that time, it appears that significant reductions have mainly been seen on Type II devices which, while adequate for most domestic installations, might be considered inadequate in some cases and therefore an unnecessary expense.

Am I right? If not, feel free to clarify this (or demolish my feeble thinking ?).
 
Having watched SPD prices reduce since that time, it appears that significant reductions have mainly been seen on Type II devices which, while adequate for most domestic installations, might be considered inadequate in some cases and therefore an unnecessary expense.
For an overhead line supply I too would be tempted to fit a Type 1+2 due to the potential for a very large surge, but realistically even a normal Type 2 is going to help with the protection. It might just not last very long and as we all know no one every checks them, or tests their RCDs, except at EICR times...

I think @Mike Johnson reported this in his French property, it typically burns out a Type 2 SPD each year.
 
Tend to agree with above. Been fitting surge protection in commercial for a few years now and the proper ones cost around ÂŁ1000 to fit, but at least you can attach an alarm circuit to warn when it has sacrificed itself. The ones i have seen installed either as antisurge extension leads or the small CU installed ones have generally been shot for how long, anybodies guess. For these antisurge products to be of any real use, they need checking after every power cut and weekly in my view, otherwise its a false assumption you are protected.
The cost of them is tiny but rather than get into whether its regs or not, what is more important is that they are monitored, otherwise whats the point.
 
I think @Mike Johnson reported this in his French property, it typically burns out a Type 2 SPD each year.
Not cheap on a three phase supply, three moderate strikes and the SPD is fried or can be just one big strike, seems all three phase's get hit at the same time, I now don't bother, just turn everything off during our main surge problem of thunderstorm or when we leave the property for an extended time.
 
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Yep, also tell customers that this may potentially invalidate their insurance in the event of a transient voltage such as a lightning strike causing damage... Usually focuses the mind. If they are concerned about the money that much fit a fusebox board where the SPD is less than ÂŁ30...
"Usually focuses the mind" but it's a lie, I have written this often, you can not invalidate your insurance no matter what you do, the insurance company in the case of a claim may reduce any payout due to contribute negligence, but can not invalidate your insurance, it is a contract that can not be revoked unless the terms and conditions of the application where not met.
 
Europa Components 'Simple guide to Installing Surge Protection Devices (DEHN Flyer!)'
? says:
'If you have a surge and have damage then the insurance company will pay out once and then ask you to fit SPDs."
 
NO it doesn't!

You stopped reading/copying prior the the part about residential!

Which is different to others, it is very clear the above applies to everything OTHER THAN:

...single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection.

If an end user (residential) says that he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection (not that it's less than the cost, just that it doesn't warrant it) then it need not be fitted - this would be completely compliant with the regulations.

It's not a departure!
How would this invalidate insurance? (It is 100% compliant!)

It may be a poor decision, in my/your/our opinion it would be worth fitting but the installation would be correct to the regs.

I am sorry could you point where in the regulations does it state "If the end user says he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection then it is not required"? No its a statement of fact, my point is in even the smallest house the less than ÂŁ30 protection will be protecting at least ÂŁ5k of potential damage. Thus the cost of protection being under ÂŁ30 will generally always warrant its requirement.

I can think of situations where say room for a consumer unit is limited so fitting one would mean relocating a consumer unit or having to make big changes, so would massively increase the cost of having to fit an SPD then there is an argument.

If a customer says they dont want the cost of RCD's is that also ok also?
 
Little old lady has lived for 80 years and has never once had the above problem, nor does she know anyone who has. And neither do I. Why? Cos it happens so incredibly rarely that the risk is negligible. Also, little old lady is on state pension, so has very limited funds and does not want to spend unnecessarily, ÂŁ70 is a lot of money to her. She wouldn't like to learn that her electrician was mis-selling her unnecessary items.

SPDs are there to help protect sensitive electronic equipment, I have not heard of them being touted as protection against direct lightning strikes of the magnitude that would destroy fixed wiring. Where are you getting this information from?



You're misrepresenting my argument. IF a surge event happens, and the SPD protects ÂŁ5k worth of equipment (which it isn't guaranteed to do BTW), then it was money well spent. However, the odds of it happening are so incredibly slim as to be negligible. And even if they weren't, who am I to make that decision? It's up to my clients.


Without a link to back this comment up, this smells of fertiliser.


Why? Why should I make my clients spend ÂŁ20 more than they have to, if they don't want to? If ÂŁ20 is nothing to you, then send me ÂŁ20 now.


This is a truly absurd comment.

Out of interest, before the 18th edition, were you forcing these oh-so incredibly important SPDs on your clients?

I don't know anyone who has had their house burnt down, nor do I know anyone that knows anyone.. I guess I don't need to bother having smoke alarms. I also don't know of anyone that has been injured or killed by an electric shock where they don't have RCD protection.. Guess I don't need RCD's.. I know loads of people who used to drive with no seat belt, don't know of anyone that ever got injured or killed because of not wearing a seat belt, guess I don't need to bother with that either..

Just look at car chargers and the importance of PEN fault protection, how incredibly rare would that be, yet its still a mandatory factor, by your logic we should not bother.

No I was not forcing SPD's, the problem is they were a niche item that was very expensive, because they introduced it and now thousands of them are being fitted they have become very cheap, just in the same way RCD's and RCBO's have. Just look at AFDD, when they make those mandatory they will come down massively in price.
 
If a customer says they dont want the cost of RCD's is that also ok also?
Yes, of course it is. It's then your decision whether to continue......contrary to 7671 18th.

ÂŁ30 or ÂŁ3000, omitting SPD is not contrary, where domestic work is concerned.

The argument is not about whether they are worth it or not, it's about necessity.
 
I am sorry could you point where in the regulations does it state "If the end user says he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection then it is not required"? No its a statement of fact, my point is in even the smallest house the less than ÂŁ30 protection will be protecting at least ÂŁ5k of potential damage. Thus the cost of protection being under ÂŁ30 will generally always warrant its requirement.

I can think of situations where say room for a consumer unit is limited so fitting one would mean relocating a consumer unit or having to make big changes, so would massively increase the cost of having to fit an SPD then there is an argument.

If a customer says they dont want the cost of RCD's is that also ok also?
It doesn’t and nor did I in any way suggest it does.

I detailed word for word the actual regulation ahead of this, and then added my own commentary/comments such as the section you mention, in much the same way as others have done, yourself included.



The regulation uses the term warrant and not more than/less than for very good reason, because it is not just the ÂŁ cost of replacement vs ÂŁ cost of protection which needs to be considered.



This has been mentioned by others already.

If it was it would be simple, but ridiculous; some bit of Tech cost ÂŁ31.00 the protection costs ÂŁ30 so the protection is mandatory, but the customer then gets a discount to ÂŁ29.00 so the protection is no longer required??

There are so many factors to consider, there is no tech whatsoever – so £0 hence on first sight it doesn’t warrant the cost of protection; however, the customer knows that actually any unavailability would have severe impact to them, so in spite of the £ cost of replacement vs £ cost of protection being completely in favour of omitting the protection, in actuality the customer knows the protection is warranted.

Similarly, the customer appears to have lots of stuff, but it is provided on rent, any failures mean a brand-new replacement at no cost to the customer! – clearly this doesn’t warrant SPD protection. Alternatively, the customer has an assured new-for-old insurance policy – again any failures result in them getting new tech for free (Saves them having to “Spill” a drink into the TV)….. The list of circumstances is endless!

Who is able to make this decision – the balance between the cost to the customer based on their personal circumstances, experiences of previous incidents at that property etc – it certainly isn’t the electrician trying to upsell that can do this, it is of course the customer themselves.

Irrespective of one’s own bias on SPD being a good/bad thing the regulations make it clear, not fitting SPD in a single dwelling where the cost of protection is not warranted is completely in-line with the regulations.

As to good/bad I have differing opinions, I have SPD fitted at my own home, I recommend SPD on every job (not usually residential work – I work on larger projects usually); however, I have come to the belief that in the long term they are going to be useless.

In general SPD can only withstand one major surge, so inevitably where the protection is needed after the first Major surge (or perhaps many minor surges) the installation is back to being without a working SPD, and since at homes absolutely no one routinely checks the condition of the consumer unit on a regular basis – it would remain unnoticed.

And whilst this is my conclusion, based on the technical facts, it doesn’t change the actual written regulations, which we all must adhere to.

As for a customer not wanting RCD, yes you check whether it may be omitted in accordance with the regs such as 434.3 for example - and if the regs permit it then yes you may omit it just like omitting SPD where the regs allow it.
 
I don't know anyone who has had their house burnt down, nor do I know anyone that knows anyone.. I guess I don't need to bother having smoke alarms. I also don't know of anyone that has been injured or killed by an electric shock where they don't have RCD protection.. Guess I don't need RCD's.. I know loads of people who used to drive with no seat belt, don't know of anyone that ever got injured or killed because of not wearing a seat belt, guess I don't need to bother with that either..

Just look at car chargers and the importance of PEN fault protection, how incredibly rare would that be, yet its still a mandatory factor, by your logic we should not bother.

No I was not forcing SPD's, the problem is they were a niche item that was very expensive, because they introduced it and now thousands of them are being fitted they have become very cheap, just in the same way RCD's and RCBO's have. Just look at AFDD, when they make those mandatory they will come down massively in price.

I think you are confusing want/likes with regulations and law, they are quite different.

Smoke alarms - no I may not know anyone, and think they are unnecessary - But they are required by LAW

RCD - no I may not know anyone, and think they are unnecessary - But they are required in some cases by the regulations

Seat Belts - no I may not know anyone, and think they are unnecessary - But they are required by LAW


Opinion is one thing, but we still abide by laws and regulations.

(And I don't actually think the above are unnecessary)
 

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