Client refusing spd

[Jefferson steelflex]

Got a customer refusing to pay additional for an spd, its in luton which i believe is known for lightning strikes .
Customer just wants me to install new standard bg board.
Normally, i wouldn't make a fuss, but because its in a lightning zone, im thinking if its mandatory. Or could i put it down as a departure.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I don't know anyone who has had their house burnt down, nor do I know anyone that knows anyone.. I guess I don't need to bother having smoke alarms. I also don't know of anyone that has been injured or killed by an electric shock where they don't have RCD protection.. Guess I don't need RCD's.. I know loads of people who used to drive with no seat belt, don't know of anyone that ever got injured or killed because of not wearing a seat belt, guess I don't need to bother with that either..

Just look at car chargers and the importance of PEN fault protection, how incredibly rare would that be, yet its still a mandatory factor, by your logic we should not bother.

No I was not forcing SPD's, the problem is they were a niche item that was very expensive, because they introduced it and now thousands of them are being fitted they have become very cheap, just in the same way RCD's and RCBO's have. Just look at AFDD, when they make those mandatory they will come down massively in price.

Your own logic is so badly flawed that I suggest you may want to consider retraining as a plumber:

1 - smoke alarms, RCDs, PEN fault protection, and seat belts SAVE LIVES. SPDs, under certain circumstances, save delicate electronics. Unless the electronics themselves are actually used to preserve life, there is no comparison.

2 - RCDs, PEN fault protection, seat belts, and (at least for new builds, rentals etc) smoke alarms, are MANDATORY. SPDs, in dwellings and in many other situations, are not.

I am not denying that surges happen, nor that they can damage electronic equipment. However, for most situations, the chances are very, very low, and the consequences largely insignificant - your TV goes on the blink, or your phone gives up. It's hardly life or death is it?

 

[Julie.]

Let's face it, all houses have equipment worth more than £30 that could potentially be damaged by surges. Show me one that doesn't and I'll show you a cave.

I am not saying that, as said above the regs use the term warrant, not "does the equipment cost more than.."

We experience this all the time, buy a new kettle or microwave or whatever and you get the usual "do you want extended warranty for £29.99?"

You make a decision based on the cost, likelihood, and personal circumstances, yet most times the cost of the replacement would be more than the £29.99 or whatever it is, many of us won't buy it though as it's covered by our insurance, or the likelihood is so small etc

The regs recognise this, and allow a decision to be made, such a decision is every bit as valid as your or my opinions, in most cases probably more valid as the customer actually knows their circumstances.

 

[catdog1121]

Your own logic is so badly flawed that I suggest you may want to consider retraining as a plumber:

1 - smoke alarms, RCDs, PEN fault protection, and seat belts SAVE LIVES. SPDs, under certain circumstances, save delicate electronics. Unless the electronics themselves are actually used to preserve life, there is no comparison.

2 - RCDs, PEN fault protection, seat belts, and (at least for new builds, rentals etc) smoke alarms, are MANDATORY. SPDs, in dwellings and in many other situations, are not.

I am not denying that surges happen, nor that they can damage electronic equipment. However, for most situations, the chances are very, very low, and the consequences largely insignificant - your TV goes on the blink, or your phone gives up. It's hardly life or death is it?

SPD's can stop fires so can save lives

It doesn’t and nor did I in any way suggest it does.

I detailed word for word the actual regulation ahead of this, and then added my own commentary/comments such as the section you mention, in much the same way as others have done, yourself included.



The regulation uses the term warrant and not more than/less than for very good reason, because it is not just the £ cost of replacement vs £ cost of protection which needs to be considered.



This has been mentioned by others already.

If it was it would be simple, but ridiculous; some bit of Tech cost £31.00 the protection costs £30 so the protection is mandatory, but the customer then gets a discount to £29.00 so the protection is no longer required??

There are so many factors to consider, there is no tech whatsoever – so £0 hence on first sight it doesn’t warrant the cost of protection; however, the customer knows that actually any unavailability would have severe impact to them, so in spite of the £ cost of replacement vs £ cost of protection being completely in favour of omitting the protection, in actuality the customer knows the protection is warranted.

Similarly, the customer appears to have lots of stuff, but it is provided on rent, any failures mean a brand-new replacement at no cost to the customer! – clearly this doesn’t warrant SPD protection. Alternatively, the customer has an assured new-for-old insurance policy – again any failures result in them getting new tech for free (Saves them having to “Spill” a drink into the TV)….. The list of circumstances is endless!

Who is able to make this decision – the balance between the cost to the customer based on their personal circumstances, experiences of previous incidents at that property etc – it certainly isn’t the electrician trying to upsell that can do this, it is of course the customer themselves.

Irrespective of one’s own bias on SPD being a good/bad thing the regulations make it clear, not fitting SPD in a single dwelling where the cost of protection is not warranted is completely in-line with the regulations.

As to good/bad I have differing opinions, I have SPD fitted at my own home, I recommend SPD on every job (not usually residential work – I work on larger projects usually); however, I have come to the belief that in the long term they are going to be useless.

In general SPD can only withstand one major surge, so inevitably where the protection is needed after the first Major surge (or perhaps many minor surges) the installation is back to being without a working SPD, and since at homes absolutely no one routinely checks the condition of the consumer unit on a regular basis – it would remain unnoticed.

And whilst this is my conclusion, based on the technical facts, it doesn’t change the actual written regulations, which we all must adhere to.

As for a customer not wanting RCD, yes you check whether it may be omitted in accordance with the regs such as 434.3 for example - and if the regs permit it then yes you may omit it just like omitting SPD where the regs allow it.

I am sorry but when you consider the damage a lighting strike can do, not just to tech but to fixed wiring, the cost of a rewire and damage to electronic devices and we are not just talking laptops etc, we are talking washing machines, fridge freezers, cookers, TV's almost everything has electronics in it these days. That is why the regs changed so they become commonplace. You are going to have to do a lot to convince me that spending £30 is not warranted.

So ok lets say its a studio flat and its rented so apart from the cooker the landlord does not own anything else so does not care... So the damage that could be caused is new consumer unit, all the accessories, including lights etc, all fixed wiring and new cooker, so lets say £2000. When the regs were written and an SPD was say £200-£250 yeah I might agree there is an argument the cost is not warranted. But when you have the cost now at £27 thats more of a hard sell.

Where do you stop, £10million pounds worth of equipment, customer says no I dont want to spend £27 on an SPD... Does that pass your test of the cost of protection warranted? For me that does not comply with the regs as clearly it is warranted. We all know if you say to a customer do you want an SPD, it will cost you an extra £5 more than half will probably say no even if they don't know what an SPD is..

 

[catdog1121]

For those that are complete skin flints here you go an SPD for £8.83

1P+N House Surge Protector Low-voltage Protective Device Circuit Breakers | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403008872766?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

Not sure I would trust it and probably needs an MCB but the point is they are so damn cheap now how can you justify that the cost does not warrant the protection in 99.9% of homes?

 

[loz2754]

I've looked at SPDs from both sides now,
From up and down and still somehow,
It's SPD illusions I recall,
I really don't know SPDs at all!

 

[Pretty Mouth]

SPD's can stop fires so can save lives

How?

 

[ipf]

I've looked at SPDs from both sides now,
From up and down and still somehow,
It's SPD illusions I recall,
I really don't know SPDs at all!

Nah! Joni Mitchelin............she was talking about the tyres on her big yellow taxi.

 

[DPG]

For those that are complete skin flints here you go an SPD for £8.83

1P+N House Surge Protector Low-voltage Protective Device Circuit Breakers | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403008872766?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

Not sure I would trust it and probably needs an MCB but the point is they are so damn cheap now how can you justify that the cost does not warrant the protection in 99.9% of homes?

There is no way I would fit that !!!!

 

[Julie.]

SPD's can stop fires so can save lives



I am sorry but when you consider the damage a lighting strike can do, not just to tech but to fixed wiring, the cost of a rewire and damage to electronic devices and we are not just talking laptops etc, we are talking washing machines, fridge freezers, cookers, TV's almost everything has electronics in it these days. That is why the regs changed so they become commonplace. You are going to have to do a lot to convince me that spending £30 is not warranted.

So ok lets say its a studio flat and its rented so apart from the cooker the landlord does not own anything else so does not care... So the damage that could be caused is new consumer unit, all the accessories, including lights etc, all fixed wiring and new cooker, so lets say £2000. When the regs were written and an SPD was say £200-£250 yeah I might agree there is an argument the cost is not warranted. But when you have the cost now at £27 thats more of a hard sell.

Where do you stop, £10million pounds worth of equipment, customer says no I dont want to spend £27 on an SPD... Does that pass your test of the cost of protection warranted? For me that does not comply with the regs as clearly it is warranted. We all know if you say to a customer do you want an SPD, it will cost you an extra £5 more than half will probably say no even if they don't know what an SPD is..

Just how will a standard SPD protect against a surge of such magnitude that it would destroy the fixed wiring?

Standard SPSs of the type that are being installed can only protect against relatively minor voltage and current surges, A typical SPD is 2.5kV 10kA on a 8/20uS wave.

There is also likelihood, a property that has never received any such surge in the past 30 years is most likely not going to get one in the next 20 years or whatever the expected lifetime of the installation is.

Again it doesn't matter if you are convinced or not. if the customer believes it is not warranted then it is completely in line with the regs. That's it, opinions may differ but the rules are the rules, not just when it suits you or me.

There are many aspects of the regs that I don't agree with, irrespective on my beliefs I adhere to them.
[Edit - by them I mean the regs]

 

[nicebutdim]

Just how will a standard SPD protect against a surge of such magnitude that it would destroy the fixed wiring?

This is a point I tried to introduce last night. A couple of comments seemed to suggest that a £30 Type II SPD was going to offer protection against lightning strikes, which clearly isn't the case.

I even invited ridicule, had I misunderstood their capabilities.