Covering electrical wiring for lighting circuits with loft insulation ?

[chris murphy]

"Hello All",


Could I get the Opinions of some of the Electrical Professionals Please regarding covering Electrical Wiring for Lighting Circuits with Loft Insulation - Here are some details regarding why I am asking - And although I THINK that I am correct in stating that this should NOT be done - the `Real World Practicalities` that I have been Reminded about:


I am advising a Relative about some Energy Efficiency Measures for their recently purchased Home - the most Obvious / Effective being to have the Loft Insulation Topped Up to 270mm thickness of Fibre Glass Loft Insulation.

This has raised the Question about the Lighting Wiring being Covered by the Loft Insulation - Which I think that I KNOW [?] should NOT be done - ?

I believe that I would have known many Years ago that this should NOT be done because of the possible Overheating of the Wiring - But I was `Reminded` by a representative from the Company who will be Installing the Loft Insulation that in almost ALL Lofts the Lighting Wiring CANNOT be lifted up to accommodate the Loft Insulation underneath.

He told Me that IF I was Correct in stating that the Wiring should NOT be covered EVERY Home that they Insulated would have to be Rewired for the Lighting Circuits - To Allow enough `Slack` in the Wiring to Install the Insulation underneath - Which obviously is NEVER done ! - And He stated that He would NOT want the Insulation Operatives to be `Pulling Cables About` in any case - Because of possible `Loose Wires`.

I have looked Online about Installation Methods for Loft Insulation and did find the comment about NOT Insulating over Electrical Wiring - BUT - As the Insulation Company representative stated this is NEVER adhered to by them or any other Loft Insulation Company that He has worked for.

And that this `Requirement` would STOP People from having their Homes Insulated because VER FEW People would be prepared to have an Electrician Rewire the Lighting Circuits to accommodate the Loft Insulation - ALSO - a very large percentage of the Company`s work is carried out under Grants for Home Energy Efficiency and these Homes would NOT be Insulated IF the Electrical Wiring had to be Redone - Thousands of Properties !


Obviously I realise [If this is correct ?] that with the use of `Low Wattage` / High Efficiency Lightbulbs [Lamps] there is not so much `Draw` through the Lighting Cables - and I assume that this means there is much less possibility of a Overheat Situation - ?? - But I was told that NOT Covering the Electrical Cables with Loft Insulation has NEVER been adhered to - Regardless of the Wattage Lightbulbs that were in use [NEVER even considered].

He / the Insulation Operatives were aware of the need for `Boxes` to enclose Recessed Lights prior to Loft Insulation being fitted.


I was told by the Insulation Company Representative that He could not remember this `Issue` EVER being brought to His attention and that He has worked for 3 Insulation Companies who have probably Insulated `Hundreds of Thousands` of Homes between them !

I would really appreciate the Professional Opinion of some Members - And I would ask Are the Electrical Cables in YOUR Lofts covered by Loft Insulation ?


"Sorry" to have written such a long Post about this - But I wanted to explain the situation correctly.


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Don't see where this is going now. At first thought it was a genuine question. Surely there are enough answers that confirm the worries given by the OP?

"Hello Amp David",

Here is My comment to GLENNSPARK when He suggested that I research further and gave Me some reference numbers from the Onsite Guide [IET] :


"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavor to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.



That comment about receiving `Simple Explanations` which `put My mind at rest` was what I referred to in the previous Post as alluding to the situation where My Questions had been Answered.

Regards,

Chris.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello Amp David",

Here is My comment to GLENSPARK when He suggested that I research further and gave Me some reference numbers from the Onsite Guide [IET] :


"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavor to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.



That comment about receiving `Simple Explanations` which `put My mind at rest` was what I referred to in the previous Post as alluding to the situation where My Questions had been Answered.

Regards,

Chris.

I wouldn`t lose any sleep over it Chris.....theres all manner of folk comes in here.....some with manners....some without........

 

[chris murphy]

I wouldn`t lose any sleep over it Chris.....theres all manner of folk comes in here.....some with manners....some without........

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

I was not trying to be `awkward` regarding My comments to Amp David - Just the opposite - I did NOT want Him to think that My Question was NOT Genuine - As He Helped Me with a Very Simple Explanation regarding the possibility of the Cables Over Heating I wanted to reassure Him that My Question WAS Genuine - And Ask what made Him now think otherwise ?

But Thanks for Your Response - I have just replied to a Question from You regarding the Earthing of Gas Pipes and Water Mains - Where You asked Me about a `Test` - As I am NOT an Electrician I could not answer that.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Guest112]

you sound like a very well spoken genuine polite person chris, your question is definately a genuine question as electricians we do calculate cable sizes accordingly and like it is said after many years of cables being installed companies are going around installing insulation directly on top without thinking about it, and this does affect the maximum permitted current carrying capacity of the cable so definately a fair genuine thread and AmpDavids replys were good answers but his last reply he did forget his manners,

all the best mate

 

[chris murphy]

you sound like a very well spoken genuine polite person chris, your question is definitely a genuine question as electricians we do calculate cable sizes accordingly and like it is said after many years of cables being installed companies are going around installing insulation directly on top without thinking about it, and this does affect the maximum permitted current carrying capacity of the cable so definitely a fair genuine thread and AmpDavids replys were good answers but his last reply he did forget his manners,

all the best mate

"Hello peterdaniels",

Thanks for Your response - I did NOT find Amp David`s Post in any way `Ill Mannered` - I was just a bit confused at WHAT made Him state something like `At first I thought the question was genuine` - And because He Helped Me with a very easy to understand explanation I did NOT want Him to View Me as Posting Questions that are not Genuine.

The LAST THING that I want to do is to Alienate Myself from the VERY Helpful Electrical Experts / Members of this Forum - I don`t want People to have the completely wrong impression about Me / My Posts.

I would really appreciate a Reply from Amp David - So that We can clear up any misunderstanding - "Please".


Regards to All,


Chris

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Its a public forum and anyone is welcome to come in here and ask questions, join in and get involved etc....all and any questions/posts are valuable to this forum so dont think you cant come in here and ask for fear of being ridiculed as the forum members in here aint like that and any nonsense is picked up and dealt with by the moderators n all......so feel free to keep "poping in" to share info and advice wont you Chris....it all counts mate.....
Glenn.

 

[chris murphy]

Its a public forum and anyone is welcome to come in here and ask questions, join in and get involved etc....all and any questions/posts are valuable to this forum so dont think you cant come in here and ask for fear of being ridiculed as the forum members in here aint like that and any nonsense is picked up and dealt with by the moderators n all......so feel free to keep "poping in" to share info and advice wont you Chris....it all counts mate.....
Glenn.

"Thanks very much Glenn" -

I appreciate Your comments and it has been Good corresponding with You - It probably IS our `Off Subject` Posts that have irritated Amp David [?] - Especially as I wrote such LONG Messages to You replying to your Questions about Spray Foam Loft Insulation.

If So I Apologise to Him - "Please accept My Apology Amp David" - But could You Please let Me know IF it WAS My Posts replying to GLENSPARK that caused You to wonder IF My original Question was genuine ? - Because I still cannot see why You might have thought otherwise ?


Regards,

Chris

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Thanks very much Glenn" -

I appreciate Your comments and it has been Good corresponding with You - It probably IS our `Off Subject` Posts that have irritated Amp David [?] - Especially as I wrote such LONG Messages to You replying to your Questions about Spray Foam Loft Insulation.

If So I Apologise to Him - "Please accept My Apology Amp David" - But could You Please let Me know IF it WAS My Posts replying to GLENSPARK that caused You to wonder IF My original Question was genuine ? - Because I still cannot see why You might have thought otherwise ?


Regards,

Chris

Well there aint such a thing as the "forum superintendant" and the "electrical police" dont exist either...unk:

 

[Guest123]

Well there aint such a thing as the "forum superintendant"

Yes there is.:beatnik:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes there is.:beatnik:

OK Lenny.....good call mate as after i had posted that one i thought to myself...hold on a minute...dont think i got it quite right there...lol........

 

[Zeno]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

Please accept My Apology for keep missing the second `N` in GLENNSPARK - I try to ENSURE that I don`t make an Error in someone`s Name or Nom de Plume - But I seem to have missed out the second `N` in yours more often than I typed it !

"Sorry Mate" - I won`t make that mistake again - I did look back on My Posts to You to see if I could Edit the `N` into your Nom de Plume - But the majority I could NOT Edit.

Do You happen to know at what stage [ Days Old ?] the Posts become NOT available to Edit ??

Regards,


Chris

 

[Amp David]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

"Hello Amp David",

Thank You for replying - As I stated in My Messages to You I did NOT want You to think My Original Question was NOT Genuine.

And "Thanks for your Help" once again.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

"Hello Zeno",

With regard to your comment that Plumbers and Heating Engineers don`t have to `Sign` that their Work meets Building Regulations etc. :

PLUMBERS:

Almost ALL Works in Plumbing HAVE TO meet the relevant Building Regulations - Self Employed Plumbers either have to be Members of Approved Competent Persons Schemes for BOTH the Water Regulations [Used to be Water Bylaws] AND for the Building Regulations aspects relating to Plumbing / Drainage / Hygiene and then Record / Notify and Certify their Plumbing & Drainage [inc. obviously Waste Water] - OR Their Work HAS TO BE Notified to both the Building Control Department of the Local Authority AND the relevant Water Authority - These Organisations will then Inspect / Supervise compulsary Testing of the Works - Pressure Testing of Copper Pipework and Air Testing of Waste Water / Soil and Drainage - As well as ENSURING that ALL of the Works adhere to EVERY relevant Regulation.

The involvement of the Building Control Department and the Water Authority is Chargeable - and can Cost quite a lot of Money ! - Paid usually by the Client - BUT - NOT something that the Client would want to find out `After the Works` !

ONLY very basic `Like for Like Swaps` are exempt from these requirements - And even then ONLY If there has to be NO Upgrading of Pipework etc. to adhere to New Regulations.


HEATING ENGINEERS:


ALL Heating Engineers who Install Gas Appliances and Pipework HAVE TO be Registered with GasSafe who have taken over from CORGI as the National Gas Installer Registration Organisation.

In order to be Registered they HAVE TO be Assessed on ALL of the aspects of Gas Work that they carry out - This is a 5 Yearly process and they also HAVE TO renew their Registration on a Yearly basis.

There are also GasSafe Inspections carried out on Sample Jobs by GasSafe Inspectors to ensure that Gas Installers are carrying out their work correctly and adhering to ALL relevant Regulations.

Heating Engineers carry out Safety Inspections / Landlords Inspections on Gas Appliances and Pipework and Issue Certificates for ALL of the Gas Appliances that they Install - as well as Notifying these Gas Appliances to GasSafe on the basis that the Heating Engineer is of `An Approved Class of Person` who can Inspect and Certify Gas Installations and Appliances.

This Notification / Certification is INSTEAD OF Inspections by the Building Control Department - And can ONLY be carried out by REGISTERED GAS INSTALLERS - MANY of who are Heating Engineers.

I have deliberately commented on Self Employed Plumbers and Heating Engineers here - because obviously those working for Companies would have the Companies Notifying and Certifying the Works / Contracts.

Just a few comments to allay the impression that `Plumbers and Heating Engineers do NOT `Sign For` their Work`.

I am NOT trying to be argumentive here Zeno - just trying to show - Briefly - The Plumber & Heating Engineers Viewpoint.

Regards,

Chris - Heating - Plumbing and Gas Installer