Covering electrical wiring for lighting circuits with loft insulation ?

[chris murphy]

"Hello All",


Could I get the Opinions of some of the Electrical Professionals Please regarding covering Electrical Wiring for Lighting Circuits with Loft Insulation - Here are some details regarding why I am asking - And although I THINK that I am correct in stating that this should NOT be done - the `Real World Practicalities` that I have been Reminded about:


I am advising a Relative about some Energy Efficiency Measures for their recently purchased Home - the most Obvious / Effective being to have the Loft Insulation Topped Up to 270mm thickness of Fibre Glass Loft Insulation.

This has raised the Question about the Lighting Wiring being Covered by the Loft Insulation - Which I think that I KNOW [?] should NOT be done - ?

I believe that I would have known many Years ago that this should NOT be done because of the possible Overheating of the Wiring - But I was `Reminded` by a representative from the Company who will be Installing the Loft Insulation that in almost ALL Lofts the Lighting Wiring CANNOT be lifted up to accommodate the Loft Insulation underneath.

He told Me that IF I was Correct in stating that the Wiring should NOT be covered EVERY Home that they Insulated would have to be Rewired for the Lighting Circuits - To Allow enough `Slack` in the Wiring to Install the Insulation underneath - Which obviously is NEVER done ! - And He stated that He would NOT want the Insulation Operatives to be `Pulling Cables About` in any case - Because of possible `Loose Wires`.

I have looked Online about Installation Methods for Loft Insulation and did find the comment about NOT Insulating over Electrical Wiring - BUT - As the Insulation Company representative stated this is NEVER adhered to by them or any other Loft Insulation Company that He has worked for.

And that this `Requirement` would STOP People from having their Homes Insulated because VER FEW People would be prepared to have an Electrician Rewire the Lighting Circuits to accommodate the Loft Insulation - ALSO - a very large percentage of the Company`s work is carried out under Grants for Home Energy Efficiency and these Homes would NOT be Insulated IF the Electrical Wiring had to be Redone - Thousands of Properties !


Obviously I realise [If this is correct ?] that with the use of `Low Wattage` / High Efficiency Lightbulbs [Lamps] there is not so much `Draw` through the Lighting Cables - and I assume that this means there is much less possibility of a Overheat Situation - ?? - But I was told that NOT Covering the Electrical Cables with Loft Insulation has NEVER been adhered to - Regardless of the Wattage Lightbulbs that were in use [NEVER even considered].

He / the Insulation Operatives were aware of the need for `Boxes` to enclose Recessed Lights prior to Loft Insulation being fitted.


I was told by the Insulation Company Representative that He could not remember this `Issue` EVER being brought to His attention and that He has worked for 3 Insulation Companies who have probably Insulated `Hundreds of Thousands` of Homes between them !

I would really appreciate the Professional Opinion of some Members - And I would ask Are the Electrical Cables in YOUR Lofts covered by Loft Insulation ?


"Sorry" to have written such a long Post about this - But I wanted to explain the situation correctly.


Chris

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, yes I agree that what you have described is what should happen, I was commenting on what is really happening.

My comments about Gas Safe were that registering a job with Gas Safe, did not mean you were registering that the whole job that you have done, meets the Building Regulations.
Also the number of plumbers in schemes or notifying direct is very low, which is not surprising when they can look at what the Electrical Part P guys have to put up with.
.

LABC have issues with it as well,
“LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance.”

“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “

-------------------------------

“However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.”

Well the Schemes would agree with that lucrative idea, but being a member of a Scheme does not provide Competence.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

This reply is NOT meant to be pedantic.

There is a comment in your Post that I cannot agree with:


“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “



My disagreement is this:

ONLY Members of a recognised Competent Persons scheme can Notify their Work - VIA whichever scheme they are a Member of - And ALL of the schemes are Recognised by the Building Control Departments - Country Wide - It was the Department of Communities and Local Government that Licensed all of the various Competent Persons Schemes.

If Tradesmen are NOT registered with one of the Approved Competent Persons schemes relating to their Trade - Which would now be Unusual - I would have thought - Because these Schemes are the ONLY Way to be able to Notify your Work and Certify that the Work DOES comply with all relevant Building Regulations - They would then have to Apply in advance of carrying out the Works [For a lot of Building Works] - Often having to Submit Drawings and a Schedule of Plumbing / Heating / Sanitaryware & Taps etc. - to the Building Control Department of the Local Authority - Although sometimes this is done by a Building Contractor or Surveyor / Architect - Or the Client.

If done by a Person who is NOT Specifying the Plumbing Materials, Heating Equipment - Sanitaryware - Taps etc. then the Tradesman will obviously have prior involvement in Itemising these Materials for submission to Building Control.

Building Control will then be involved in ALL Aspects of the Works and Charge accordingly - These Charges can be a VERY Expensive `Additional Cost` - The Charges can DEFINITELY be the difference in whether a `Non Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme` Tradesman Wins a Job - OR Whether the Tradesman who IS Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme and CAN Notify their Works - resulting in the Client being Sent Certificates of Compliance with the Building Regulations - Which as You know are often required when People Sell their Properties - Even more so since the Scrapping of the Home Information Packs.


Your comment about People Notifying Works which do NOT comply with all the relevant Building Regulations WILL obviously have some validity - BUT - As Members of the relevant Competent Persons Schemes they ARE Signing Off their Works as `Fully Compliant` - As in any Works that are carried out and then `Self Inspected` / Notified by the Tradesperson themselves there WILL be Unscrupulous People who will `Cut Corners` when working.

When a GasSafe Registered Installer Notifies a Gas Appliance they state / certify verbally that the Gas Appliance has been Installed in FULL Compliance with the Manufacturers Instructions - Gas Safety Regulations AND the relevant Building Regulations which apply to the Installation of that category / Type of Gas Appliance.

Also I would be very interested to know where You found the Information that Very Few Plumbers are Members of Competent Persons Schemes - NOT that I don`t believe what You stated - I would just like to find out about that - could you perhaps send Me some reference details in a Private Message - IF You would rather NOT Post those details - "Thanks".

"Thanks for Your Reply Zeno".


Chris

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occassions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occasions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

"Hello Again Zeno",

I hope that You won`t mind if I don`t try to remember what I wrote in My `Lost` Post of Sunday - I probably went into far too much detail anyway.

To make it short - and I have written this previously - I can`t understand how the Local Authority Building Control Departments can be stating that some People who are `Notifying` Gas Appliance Installations are `NOT Members of a Competent Persons Scheme` - As GasSafe when they Notify the LABC on behalf of the Registered Gas Installer ARE the Competent Persons Scheme for Gas Installers.

When Gas Installers Notify their Installations of Gas Appliances to GasSafe - because of their Gas ACS Assessment Categories / Registrations the Gas Installer is `An Approved Person` to be Installing Gas Appliances - To Comply with ALL Relevant Gas Regulations - Manufacturers Instructions AND Building Regulations.

I really don`t know what the statement in there Article from the LABC`s means - in light of the above information - GasSafe is THE ONLY `Competent Persons Scheme` for GAS.

IF the Article had stated that they have found Gas Appliance Installations where some Building Regulations had NOT been adhered to for Work that had been Notified to the LABC by GasSafe - that would be a different matter - I am certain that there would be Gas Appliance Installations where that is the case.

Human Nature means that there will always be People who don`t adhere to the Regulations - However Qualified / Registered / Knowledgeable they are.


Regards,


Chris