Customer won't pay to correct dangerous wiring

[brennybig]

Asked to put a new 32amp cooker circuit into an old wylex 6 way board. Explained that I needed to split meter tails and install a new CU with RCD protection for cooker. Suggested a new CU for the whole house but customer unwilling to pay and insists on wiring new cooker circuit to old board which I am unwilling to do as no RCD protection. I am happy to walk away from the job but I noticed that there is a 5 socket radial circuit (2 sockets are in the kitchen) with 2.5mm cable except for the cable from the old wylex CU to the first socket which is only 1.5mm. Explained it had to be changed to a ring main with the correct cable and hence it will also need RCD protection. It is a dangerous setup and customer insists it has worked for years so unwilling to pay for corrective work. I can't just walk away and leave it unsafe! Do I just remove the 1.5mm cable between CU and first socket for safety reasons, upsetting the customer as the sockets will no longer work, or am I expected to do all the corrective work at my own expense by converting it to a ring main (without RCD)? I feel at present that I should remove the 1.5mm cable and tell the upset customer that he needs to get it properly repaired when he has the money. He is running a dishwasher, tumble drier and washing machine on these sockets at present!! Any thoughts?

Cheers

Brenny

 

[rich.250]

Sorry *calc

 

[needasparks]

Does seem like the main install is getting bogged down with issues, from the OP he was asked to install a cooker supply, ok there may be other things wrong but the main point is the client was not willing to have the cooker installed correctly so end of story, walk away ! There could be hundreds of things wrong in the installation and yes while your there you can point these out but you know they are not using you for the works so recommend an inspection, there it ends.
You have done no work there so you dont need to issue anything, yes if you feel the need to put your findings in writing do so but you have no come back either way and the client already knows, you told them, and from what you say, they are not bothered.

I don't understand the need to issue a danger notice for everything we see. We are not the police, it is not dangerous and only has the potential to be dangerous if overloaded. These certs must only be issued for real danger.

 

[Spudnik]

Electricity is seen as an "essential service" which gas isn't therefore it cannot be just cut off. It's the same with water.

 

[wildgoose]

telectrix said: agree^^^. put your concerns in writing and send it to him recorded delivery. that way, you've covered yourself and the ball's in his court ( not you in court )

Quicker, cheaper and just as legally binding if the customer gets an email.

He would need acknowledge receipt of the message though!!

 

[Kevin01]

This is definetly the best answer well written needasparks.

 

[Des 56]

Electricity is seen as an "essential service" which gas isn't therefore it cannot be just cut off. It's the same with water.

Be very careful what you do regarding chopping off dangerous circuits without consent
Power can't be cut willy nilly even by the supplier,if there arevchildren in the property it compounds the sin

You will end up being the spark with the law coming down on you if you continue this one man safety crusade

 

[Deleted member 9648]

There does seem to be a feeling amongst many that if you are asked to do a job...you are legally bound to inspect the entire place and correct any problems encountered. You only need to correct defects which affect the work you are carrying out,and notify the client of any other defects identified....The OP even hints at having to correct a circuit he is not touching at his own expense!....Regarding the cooker...does it require RCD protection?...(buried cable or surface?)..if not why cant you wire it straight to a 3036 fuse in the existing CU??...assuming earthing and bonding are satisfactory of course.

 

[colshaws]

Hold on there is no legal obligation for him to "issue" a DCO and the customer is not obliged to sign anything as he has not done any work for them he can only highlight his findings in writing and then its up to the customer. I am not trying to have a pop here but we do not have the same degree of authority as the GASAFE guys with regards to issueing notices best thing he can do is highlight his finding and walk away because it could backfire on him ie accusations of interferance intimidation to get more work done and then he could be labelled as being aggressive

I stand corrected, I just thought it would cover his back.

 

[Kevin01]

What i would have done is told him what is required to install his cooker circuit and then if I found something else which needed attention I would have made a note on the neccesary paperwork and let the customer decide from there.If I found something that was very unsafe then I would remove the fuse to that circuit and fill out the neccesary paperwork.If then the customer puts that fuse back in then thats his look out.

 

[oldtimer]

Just my 2p, feel free to disagree
See situations like this really needs something like an electrical version of gassafe brought in (with better oversight, don't know how good gassafe is, but have seen some real cowboys who were corgi registered in the past) or a requirement for regular inspections from someone who doesn't do the remedial work to assure impartiality (in theory at least)
Our system is a mess, no way to force it to be remedied, too many willing to look the other way as "we've done it that way for years" or "the customer doesn't want to pay for it to be done right" "the customer wants it done this way, who am I to argue?"
I'd be happy with a system of required inspections say backed by the insurance industry - "no electrical safety cert, no policy pay out" which would persuade many to make sure it was done. The issue is making sure shonky certs don't get issued, which could be a real sticking point.
What do others think?

I can understand and agree with some of this and over the years we have seen BG go from a utility company to a sales driven company and workforce and Gassafe was a godsend to these guys so much so that the were servicing systems for years then all of a sudden they were "dangerous to life and limb" but we can fix it for you for a cost just like the 2 pensioners who told me that they had to pay them £180 because there was no earth on their gas pipe. The only problem is by giving the sparks the same type of power then like the banking debacle it would in my view be a greed fest and that cannot be right yes I know it may at some times be criminal to leave as is but it is all about reponsability ie its up to you to get the brakes on your car fixed its not Kwik Fits fault that you decide you do not like the price plus you dont see them saying sorry I am keeping the car and serving you with a danger notice until you get this sorted or in other words legalised extortion.

 

[overskilled]

Be very careful what you do regarding chopping off dangerous circuits without consent
Power can't be cut willy nilly even by the supplier,if there arevchildren in the property it compounds the sin

You will end up being the spark with the law coming down on you if you continue this one man safety crusade

And thats where the system falls down. Whats worse no power and use of torches and blankets or 3 kids die in a housefire because the "parents" fail to have their home properly maintained??
Problem is no one in authority has a clue and are terrified of upsetting the militant mummy brigade "Tiegan missed druggytubbies and I had to play with her, thats no on", many local authorities fired their "clerk of works" who had a clue and replaced them with "inspectors" who turn up in many cases in nice shiny suits and shoes, take a quick glance and leave (well round my road anyways)
Other problem is differing views, I take the view that if there are defects then the homeowner should be required to have them rectified by law or have those circuits or their whole supply isolated until they comply.
As mentioned above, requiring regular inspections of electricity, gas and general house structure (wind/water tightness) as a pre-requisite for insurance coverage would improve things by a large margin (along with requiring buildings cover by law), the problem would be stopping the cowboys of this world looking the other way to appease some stroppy householder or writing a cert on a bad install for an off the books cash payment.
Its not likely to get sorted as its a long term issue, and govts for years have been more interested in the short term bodges than a proper long term fix.

 

[overskilled]

I can understand and agree with some of this and over the years we have seen BG go from a utility company to a sales driven company and workforce and Gassafe was a godsend to these guys so much so that the were servicing systems for years then all of a sudden they were "dangerous to life and limb" but we can fix it for you for a cost just like the 2 pensioners who told me that they had to pay them £180 because there was no earth on their gas pipe. The only problem is by giving the sparks the same type of power then like the banking debacle it would in my view be a greed fest and that cannot be right yes I know it may at some times be criminal to leave as is but it is all about reponsability ie its up to you to get the brakes on your car fixed its not Kwik Fits fault that you decide you do not like the price plus you dont see them saying sorry I am keeping the car and serving you with a danger notice until you get this sorted or in other words legalised extortion.

Thing is though, any good garage should tell you that the brakes are dangerous and if you still take the car, then they should be calling the cops and making the traffic unit aware that a dangerous and unroadworthy vehicle is on the road.
The solution I suppose is a flat rate fee for the inspection (say as part of your home insurance fee, inspection companies get paid no matter what they find and not permitted to also run repair divisions or barred from taking on the repair work for any job they have inspected - so as to prevent people finding non existent faults ala some MOT centres, who suddenly find some horrific fault that they can fix for only £950)
If the inspection finds a dangerous fault (as in liable to cause a fire - 8.5Kw shower on 1.5mm2 T+E (have seen examples in the past...no joke) ) then the power goes off and householder required to have problem resolved before power restored, fault entered on central database and lockout noted, time given for fault to be resolved and fine issued if lockout removed before fault resolved or fault not resolved within a set period. Up to the householder to then pick an electrician and get things sorted.
If a non immediately dangerous to life and limb fault found, householder given notice of fault, fault entered into database and insurance withheld until fault resolved, fine issued if fault not resolved within a set period of time. Could be a nice little earner for some Local Authorities, though I wouldn't trust them with that responsibility.
BG are a prime example of how things can go wrong, I've seen photos from some gas installers of the horrific pricing and work standards done by some working for BG.
What scares me to a degree is that there are sparks out there with decades of experience still working, who have failed the 17th edition with scores of 20 and 30% on the exam and who during course tutorials have no clue of safe working practices or interest as "I've done it this way for years".
Problem also is electrical standards are getting watered down, appliances with ridiculously thin cordsets etc....Just makes me shake my head tbh

 

[imago]

Before you start issuing notices, bear in mind what folks have said about recommending an inspection. If an EICR was carried out, then the issues described would warrant a C2 (Potentially dangerous). Splitting the tails or changing the CU seem like overkill to install a cooker circuit, there are a number of ways to do that job as already mentioned by previous posters. That said I haven't seen the condition of the current board but there's no mention of burning or melted sleeves etc.

I don't like the ever increasing 'Henny Penny' approach to inspections and advising customers. I would suggest that you pause for a think before informing anyone that the sky is falling, it might be nothing more than an acorn.

 

[oldtimer]

Imago I totaly agree this is not a crusade we are on and yes safety is the issue but again we are not electrical policeman and whats frightens me is some guys are taking this stuff on as a second calling to a new religion or could it be as a customer would say just plain greed and abuse of power that we do not and never will have and as the old addage goes you can lead a horse to water ......................................

 

[Astro800]

Had a few customers like this, they make you sick. Loads of money & won't part with it. Doesn't make me feel guilty any more. Stuff him, walk away. There are so many that will put on the sob story & expect it done for nothing :nopity: