Day rate

[SolarCity]

would they do a job on day rate of £150-200 a day, just given/offered to them, no work done on their part to generate the business, just get in their van, go to the job, do it, do the paperwork, sign it off, and back to their business.

Absolutely not. "Do the paperwork, sign it off." - you make it sound like simply signing your name on a form.

 

[SolarCity]

Then you are saying that you are worth more than a plumber, bricky, plasterer, teacher! All these trades that have served their time, have experience and are good at their jobs.
Thats fine, good for you, no problem with that.
Not everyone is as precious about their worth.

What a plumber, brickie, plasterer or teacher earns is of no interest to me. What I do know is what I am worth and I can tell you straight that you won't be getting my standard of work for £150 a day. You will get a pair of qualified hands. No more, no less.

 

[Jaytbaez]

I don't think anyone's denying it, but once the plastering is done, that's pretty much it other than the odd trip to the wholesalers.

A spark will have to submit a notification via their CPS afterwards, which is maybe an hour of paperwork per job, plus a half day on site assessment of 2 jobs once a year with minimal paperwork requirements.

A solar installer who's doing the MCS side of things will have minimum half a day of paperwork for every job they do, plus their CPS assesments once a year, plus their MCS assessment once a year that also involves an absolute mound of paperwork, taking 1 person maybe a week in total, plus all the other stuff previously discussed.

now, if the agency is going to take care of all that stuff and the spark just needs to show up, do the job, and go home and put his feet up, then maybe a £150 day rate could be viable if the work was regular 3-4 days a week. But that's not what was initially discussed.

Agreed GAVIN, but this half day of paperwork seems to be a very big issue, is it applied mathmatics or something?
And even if it is, day rate applies, if it takes you 2 days to install and a full day even to do this paperwork, then thats £450.

I was never saying that you should do something you're not paid for.

 

[SolarCity]

Come on, most industries have sales people, because most industries need them, the need a mouth, someone to go out and grab business.

They only need them because they are in competition with other companies with salespeople. Take away salespeople from the mix and the amount of work out there will stay precisely the same as it is now. Employing salespeople simply starts a pointless arms race where salespeople win and customers lose.

And do you know why, because tradesmen, are many times, not very good salespeople, nothing wrong with either, you may be very bright and good with your hands, but useless at face to face meetings and actually making a deal.

I suppose that depends how you rate a 'good' salesman.

Does he make plenty of sales? Or he does he answer the questions honestly? Who would you employ for your business?

I'm probably a useless salesperson and I would fall very short of any target that a potential employer was to give me but I can guarantee you that no salesperson would be able to sit with a potential customer and answer their questions as honestly and professionally as I do.

My electrical business has never needed a salesperon so I don't see why the solar industry has to be so reliant on them. I very much doubt it is for the benefit of the customer.....

 

[Jaytbaez]

What a plumber, brickie, plasterer or teacher earns is of no interest to me. What I do know is what I am worth and I can tell you straight that you won't be getting my standard of work for £150 a day. You will get a pair of qualified hands. No more, no less.

And if more and more customers can go to Edmunsons and buy all the kit, the pay £500 for the scaffold, and then pay an agency for two "qualified hands" to install, do the paperwork and sign it off, all legit and to MCS standards, then why should they pay more, when they can pay less.

Edmunsons are happy, the scaffold firm is, the agency takes its 10%, the installers get paid their day rate, MCS compliance has been adhered to - and the customer has their install done for less than they would have paid - or an install has been done that might not ever had because the customer wouldn't have had the money to do it paying for the whole job to be done by an installer.

Not everyone would think about this, is the same way not everyone wants to sell their own house, but talking to Edmunsons and other wholesalers, more and more are getting calls from customers exploring the DIY option.

Glory days are over, the industry is changing.

 

[jason121]

who will design the system?
Edmunsons won't and if the did supply joe public i wouldnt deal with them on the electrical side. They make more money out me than a one off joe public in a year

 

[Jaytbaez]

They only need them because they are in competition with other companies with salespeople. Take away salespeople from the mix and the amount of work out there will stay precisely the same as it is now. Employing salespeople simply starts a pointless arms race where salespeople win and customers lose.
I suppose that depends how you rate a 'good' salesman.
Does he make plenty of sales? Or he does he answer the questions honestly? Who would you employ for your business?

I'm probably a useless salesperson and I would fall very short of any target that a potential employer was to give me but I can guarantee you that no salesperson would be able to sit with a potential customer and answer their questions as honestly and professionally as I do.

My electrical business has never needed a salesperon so I don't see why the solar industry has to be so reliant on them. I very much doubt it is for the benefit of the customer.....

I'm inclined to agree with alot of that, really I am.
But salespeople are as old as time, sales is a profession no matter what you think of it, it's there, and it's going nowhere.
You can't just have a world full of inventors, and tradesmen etc, business just wouldn't get done, a capitalist society depends on salespeople selling the wares, services and creations of others, it takes all sorts.
But the facts are, that for some reason, solar has alot of businesses that have salespeople, so we are, or should I say you guys are where you are.
Anyone can sit and come up with the perfect plan for an industry, meanwhile the order book is quiet and bills need paying.
All I'm saying is, if that is the case, would some take a day rate, 3 day job if they had nothing else on.
It's clear some would and some wouldn't, that's fair enough.

 

[Jaytbaez]

who will design the system?
Edmunsons won't and if the did supply joe public i wouldnt deal with them on the electrical side. They make more money out me than a one off joe public in a year

There will be an agency for designers if there is going to be an agency for installers, probably the same.
And trust me, loads of electrical wholesalers would sell to the public, not just Edmunsons, as I've said, there are small PV wholesalers who are sick, have seen installers go behind their backs and go straight to source, usually China and cut out the UK wholesaler just to save 6p per watt on a panel, I guess that's the sad thing about the current state of affairs, it's making all people make decisions and do things they probably wouldn't have pre December 2011.

 

[SolarCity]

And if more and more customers can go to Edmunsons and buy all the kit, the pay £500 for the scaffold, and then pay an agency for two "qualified hands" to install, do the paperwork and sign it off, all legit and to MCS standards, then why should they pay more, when they can pay less.

A casual glance through some of the threads on this forum will show exactly why this is a bad idea. There are plenty of installs that have been carried out by people who, lets be frank, have very little idea of what they are doing yet are as qualified as the rest of us. They then come on to this forum and the installers on here sympathise and try to help out - even to the extent of offering to come and sort the problem out FREE OF CHARGE.

the agency takes its 10%

Yep, by simply adding itself to the chain, the agency pockets its 10%. Not an ounce of expertise beyond being 'a good salesperson' yet seemingly entitled to 10%.

Glory days are over, the industry is changing.

Your opinion of the industry needs a reality check. I, like a lot of installers, worked almost every weekend of last year. I worked into the night and early in the morning - My wage was far less than what a train driver earns.

Things were easier last year but I'm very glad that some of the parasites in the industry have moved on to other things.

 

[Jaytbaez]

who will design the system?
Edmunsons won't and if the did supply joe public i wouldnt deal with them on the electrical side. They make more money out me than a one off joe public in a year

Also, there are design applications out there, and more to come that will enable the Joe Public to do that themselves too, as happened with the kitchen design apps years ago.

As I've repeatedly said, not every person would think about DIY, as they would not have the brains or desire.
But there are some, and that number may grow if they think they cannot afford solar if they don't DIY.

 

[jason121]

I wouldnt work for someone who suppplied there own kit, not even has a electrician, been there, done it, dont work.
My family been going 40 years in the industry.
PV will never die just have to keep moving with the times.

 

[Gavin A]

Glory days are over, the industry is changing.

I suggest you read the latest MCS guidance proposals for MCS certified companies if you want to see how the industry is changing, then see if you can fit that into your business model. http://mcs.online-consultation.co.uk/documents/Installer_Guidance_v4.pdf

is the person designing and specifying the system - ie the end customer - actually competent to do this work? unlikely IME, so your business model falls at the first hurdle, and any MCS certified installers working for you would likely find themselves struck off as a result as it would be them taking responsibility for all aspects of the installation process as the company that does the sign off and certification... all for a £150 day rate.

anyway, from your attitude on here, I can only hope you waste a lot of time and money on this project and it all goes horribly wrong for you. Your business model stinks.

ps I for one will be boycotting any threads posted on any forums by your potential customers asking for free help and guidance with their systems designs if you do set this up, as well as tech support queries afterwards.

 

[jason121]

If your good at your job should never be out of work.
Sub contract labour is there to help out. Hear today gone tom, move onto the next job.

 

[SolarCity]

But salespeople are as old as time

So is herpes, but no one is suggesting that that is a good thing either.

sales is a profession no matter what you think of it, it's there, and it's going nowhere.
You can't just have a world full of inventors, and tradesmen etc, business just wouldn't get done, a capitalist society depends on salespeople selling the wares, services and creations of others, it takes all sorts

With the internet as it is now, salespeople should be less and less important. I never listen to salespeople. If I want a new computer, car, television, etc. I simply research the product. Now, more than ever, salespeople should be redundant. A world without salespeople, in my humble opinion, would be a marvellous place. Companies would be falling over themselves to make sure that their product was the best and they would be a doing it a lot cheaper.

But the facts are, that for some reason, solar has alot of businesses that have salespeople, so we are, or should I say you guys are where you are.

I suppose one of the reasons is that they, like yourself, see it as a cashcow.

 

[Jaytbaez]

There are good. bad and ugly in every industry, if you have an MCS certificate then you've done enough to be entitled to start out as a Solar Installer. If you are saying that there are many who have that and are still useless, then maybe you should be fighting for a harder certification scheme, that's not my issue.

10%, yep, and if some installer is sat there with nothing on his books, and someone who has spent the money on good digital marketing and websites, and phishing and social network marketing and old school advertising, and through has drummed up a job that he is offering to that quiet installer - then why should that installer bitch about 10% that the agency has made on him, if he is getting £150-200 a day.

Very good salespeople earn more money than doctors, teachers, solar installers - like I've said, so what? If more trades people were better sales people they'd get more business.

I'll take you're word on that and have no issue with it at ll, that was then, this is now is what I'm saying, are you working every weekend now?

lol, ok, you think I'm a parasite, that's your opinion, attacking me won't change the current state of play will it.