Do we really need all these Regulations & Qualifications?

[linetech]

Im glad to see this topic has received some descent comments and I do hope more people can post their views on the subject as there are sometimes conflicting views on the matter and its great to know why?

Its a fact that this industry gets battered with new regs and so on & it can be a real expensive game to get into, however the overall feedback I can see is that it is essential to have the relivant understanding & qualifications.. No doubt experience is essential, hopefully we can get a few comments on what people believe to be valid experience?

Thanks to you all for your time.. :yes::29:

 

[cogsey133]

Hi all,

Just trying to put the feelers out on what people think of all the regulations the electrical industry has and whether the current crop of qualifications out there in colleges & learning centres are really worth the effort and necessary??

Thanks in advance for time & replies..

The regulations and training are essential in our industry, for us to prove competence we need to do certain courses. What i feel strongly about is the amount of crap that goes along with the regulations we have, for example why is the big green book which we all try to work to only guidance? By being guidance it surely becomes open to personal interpretation by the individual. Another thing that really bugs me is why no statutory governance to help maintain standards and flush out cowboys in our game? As it stands you don't need any qualification to be a spark as nowhere in the electricity at work act does it say you do hence the increase in Electrical Trainee courses being run. I am not here to argue for or against such courses but do have my opinion but some smart --- lawyer can argue the person is competent because they have done such a course and they dont need to comply with 17th as its only guidance, ie when it hits the fan for some people they can walk away from it depending on how good their lawyer is. This is just wrong!

To sum up do we need regulations and constant training? yes in my opinion as after 28 years in this game i am still learning however the situation as is is not stopping the cowboys so something needs done to tighten up and cut down on the clear abuse that is taking place. We need something which quantifies a person as a spark as well as a national register of sparks. Never going to happen though as too much money is being made from us!

 

[oldtimer]

Yes we need qualification and regulation but we just dont need them being constantly changed and updated for the sake of change that keeps people who are getting more remote from the trade in jobs and good pensions and O boy have we had some changes in the past 5 and I bet they never said to HMRC O by the way you will see a lot of electrician putting higher training costs in their returns even although we have made a dogs breakfast of it and yes I hear the word Professional but at the end of the day a judge would beg to differ stating you are a Tradesman.

The thing is the Scheme providors or Schemies have latched on to a way of printing money so be advised the regs will get reviewed every 5 years the C&Gs will be adapted or fine tuned so that the one we have already done are no good then of course all books and COPs will have to be reprinted to new editions and then you will ask why and in reality we have kept a minority in a job and a good pension plus dont forget the bonus the inspectors get for signing you up to the latest course for the past and next 10 years.

So whats changed then from when I started my time in 1975 well MCBs,RCDs and an improvement on testing who would have thought that would have turned our trade upside down. Is it no woder that sparks of 55 + are saying enough with this certificate merrygoround and are saying I aint doing this and I will take my chances until the snotty nose kid of the Schemies tells him that he is not legal to work but the Electrical Trainee he has recently badged is more qualified than him.Thank God we dont run an army like this.

Funny old world is it not

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Oldtimer makes a lot of sense, when I started out the only way into the industry was a recognised apprenticeship,and once you completed that you were deemed competant to carry out work and leave it in a safe condition without reams of paperwork to 'prove' it. OK,we were working with 3036 fuses and no RCD's,but I'll wager there were no more deaths and fires than there are now. (And who'll deny that a high percentage of the certs filled in now are fit only for bog wipes.)
Problem today is the vast number of unproductive chiefs relative to the productive indians...and the productive indians are having to keep the chiefs in fat cat style.
So no IMO, we dont need all this constant tinkering...if the initial training from the outset produced professional tradesmen instead of chancers there would be no need for all the chiefs tinkering to justify their existance.
One thing this forum has shown me is that all the training and regulating currently thrust upon us does not produce professional electricians,proper apprenticeships produce professional electricians who would remain professional even without all the chiefs constantly emptying their wallets and finding new ways to prevent them doing their job.

 

[oldtimer]

Wirepuller good points and also the Schemies are in a hole they cannot say Part P is a mess or badging companies whos directors dont even have a technical qualification never mind an electrical one is wrong they have created a monster and have no way of taming it other than say we must work with it because this to be honest it keeps us in a job a bit like a road sweeper that does not want people to put rubbish in a bin because he is then out of a job . I honestly believe that SALES is killing our industry instead of building good foundations we are allowing self interest to take over examples being Timeshare,PPL,Libor, Endownments,Pensions,The Banks selling each other toxic loans. Yes we take a professional approuch to our jobs but I think that RCD technology has allowed higher risk because the Schemies are badging people who quite simply are not fit to wire a plug and before anybody says I am having a pop at people who have not served their time forget because that just will not wash with me as I have always believed knowledge should be shared instead of thinking it is power plus I pride myself in teaching or training someone and it is paid back to me in spades by people showing respect but the thing is there is a kicker for me in this as the mentality today is people feel threatened that you know or can do something they cannot so accusations of you are arrogant but as I have said your insecurities mistake my confidence for arrogance.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Oldtimer makes a lot of sense, when I started out the only way into the industry was a recognised apprenticeship,and once you completed that you were deemed competant to carry out work and leave it in a safe condition without reams of paperwork to 'prove' it. OK,we were working with 3036 fuses and no RCD's,but I'll wager there were no more deaths and fires than there are now. (And who'll deny that a high percentage of the certs filled in now are fit only for bog wipes.)
Problem today is the vast number of unproductive chiefs relative to the productive indians...and the productive indians are having to keep the chiefs in fat cat style.
So no IMO, we dont need all this constant tinkering...if the initial training from the outset produced professional tradesmen instead of chancers there would be no need for all the chiefs tinkering to justify their existance.
One thing this forum has shown me is that all the training and regulating currently thrust upon us does not produce professional electricians,proper apprenticeships produce professional electricians who would remain professional even without all the chiefs constantly emptying their wallets and finding new ways to prevent them doing their job.

WP I think you have just taken a 4lb club and hit that cable clip firmly on the head ............superb post

While I was reading this thread that is just about what I was formulating to write. It's not the amount of qualifications you have to have, but the standard of them and more importantly today the lack of standard.

I suppose WP OT and several others like myself sit from the lofty perch of having done apprenticeships and we truly were the fortunate ones. I suspect there is a certain amount of snobbery attached to "Having been time served" but unfortunately IMO it is still the only way to train professional skilled tradesmen.

I don't blame or envy any of the new generation for having to train like they do, as this is the only avenue open to you. I blame governments, unions, and our governing bodies for what we have today.

The governments for closing down industries and making us all "shop keepers", unions for selling us out and whoring us to any Tom Dick and Harry that would take us on, and our governing bodies going from standards and keepers of our industry to pimps

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I don't blame or envy any of the new generation for having to train like they do, as this is the only avenue open to you. I blame governments, unions, and our governing bodies for what we have today.

Indeed.....very good point,if anyone reads into my post a slight on those whose only avenue into the trade is not via apprenticeship,that wasnt my intention.

 

[telectrix]

i can't understand why an non scam, but qualified, electrician can wire up a new extension, kitchen, bathroom , whatever, and just give LABC a copy of his EIC, but is barred from a simple job of fitting a fan in a bathroom, just because he's not paid a scam.

 

[Adam W]

The regulations and training are essential in our industry, for us to prove competence we need to do certain courses. What i feel strongly about is the amount of crap that goes along with the regulations we have, for example why is the big green book which we all try to work to only guidance? By being guidance it surely becomes open to personal interpretation by the individual. Another thing that really bugs me is why no statutory governance to help maintain standards and flush out cowboys in our game? As it stands you don't need any qualification to be a spark as nowhere in the electricity at work act does it say you do hence the increase in Electrical Trainee courses being run. I am not here to argue for or against such courses but do have my opinion but some smart --- lawyer can argue the person is competent because they have done such a course and they dont need to comply with 17th as its only guidance, ie when it hits the fan for some people they can walk away from it depending on how good their lawyer is. This is just wrong!

Yes you can depart from the regs, but if it were to hit the fan and end up in court you'd need a good reason for doing so; 'not disturbing a laminate floor' or 'reducing mess' is unlikely to cut the mustard, regardless of how 'vocal' the customer was.

I see your point about everyone being qualified to the same standard, but there are a lot of old electricians who served their time alongside an electrician without any formal bits of paper, then qualified for their gold card under 'grandfathers rights'. Not having the bits of paper doesn't make them any less able to do the job, but as I've said having an up to date regs qualification should show that they've had a refresher on the latest regs, preferably without just turning up to reference answers to a book, which anyone can do.

 

[cogsey133]

Yes you can depart from the regs, but if it were to hit the fan and end up in court you'd need a good reason for doing so; 'not disturbing a laminate floor' or 'reducing mess' is unlikely to cut the mustard, regardless of how 'vocal' the customer was.

I see your point about everyone being qualified to the same standard, but there are a lot of old electricians who served their time alongside an electrician without any formal bits of paper, then qualified for their gold card under 'grandfathers rights'. Not having the bits of paper doesn't make them any less able to do the job, but as I've said having an up to date regs qualification should show that they've had a refresher on the latest regs, preferably without just turning up to reference answers to a book, which anyone can do.

I am not talking about a departure from the regs, my interpretation of a given reg may differ from yours this does not necessarily make it a departure. You only need to look on forums such as this to see sparks asking questions to get clarification of regs. If the brown stuff hit the fan therefore it comes down to how it was reasonably interpreted and how good your lawyer is...to me this is just wrong. There are too many grey areas in the regs which needs addressing.

I understand about grandfather rights and am not trying to argue the point nor as i said in my initial post argue about the Electrical Trainee courses being run however we surely must have some standard as there seems to be no definitive one at the moment. The schemies are of no help in this matter either and as far as i am concerned they are complicit in the downfall of a trade i loved being a part off for the last 28 years

 

[oldtimer]

Yes you can depart from the regs, but if it were to hit the fan and end up in court you'd need a good reason for doing so; 'not disturbing a laminate floor' or 'reducing mess' is unlikely to cut the mustard, regardless of how 'vocal' the customer was.

I see your point about everyone being qualified to the same standard, but there are a lot of old electricians who served their time alongside an electrician without any formal bits of paper, then qualified for their gold card under 'grandfathers rights'. Not having the bits of paper doesn't make them any less able to do the job, but as I've said having an up to date regs qualification should show that they've had a refresher on the latest regs, preferably without just turning up to reference answers to a book, which anyone can do.

Adam grandfather rights stopped up here in 1975 I know this because thats the year I started my time and was told get the piece of paper son or else speech and a guy who was 3 years older than me failed so he had to do a 5 year apprenticeship and was told he would always have a red SJIB card ie electricians grade green was Approved brown was technician. I for one say yes you need qualifications and in this game you do and I have complied by doing 14,15,16,17th and I can tell you it is not getting any easier at 53 but as I said before the only thing that has changed in all these years is the introduction of MCBs,RCDs and testing yet it has been allowed to develope into what I can only describe as a racket. Plus these guys doing fast track training when the pass they are what I would term as Domestic electricians because that is the field they study in this is not a put down but merely constructive comment because for years we have been saying thats how the trade should go ie Domestic and Industrial Commercial but we have allowed the Schemies to take control out of self interest.

Now the legal definitions yes its a guidance yes we should comply with it but thats the get out of jail card because it is not law.The other legal anomaly is this "You must be registered with a Scheme" yet the European Free Trade Act says otherwise and when pressed the Schemies have to admit there is no legal obligation to join. Now before anybody plays the little Britainer here and say a well Europe is always poking its nose in well heres the deal government of all colours in this country have resisted their way of doing things because we have big companies lobbying that it is bad for Britain yet in Europe they install isolators so no running about with catch 22 I want to change the CU but I am not allowed to break the seal look how many people that keeps in a job. Also electricians come under a licence scheme where they have to be insured and qualified to trade also they can get their licence revoked if taken to court and are found guilty of negligence so what do we have well we have a self interested layer of bureaucracy that is out of control and the funny thing is we have a system in this country that can licence electricians its called the JIB but the problem is the Schemies will fight tooth and nail against this so I will leave you with this.

My understanding is in Germany you get electrical work done the licenced electrician does the work and signs it of with the local planning using his licence number but if you get caught not doing this then you are forced to get it sorted are fined and you have to pay the tax of the electrical work that was done so it does not pay to have cash in hand. This government says it want to get rid of extra costs to business but as long as we keep creating electrical quangoes for retired MPs to be put to pasture with their gold plated pensions we are no better than the curruption we criticise in the 3rd world the only difference is they are up front about it and we are two faced about it

 

[thekingiam]

what i don't believe in is having to pay for the nvq3 site assesment for someone to check your work and get the ability to get a jib card then also have to pay another site assesment to do domestics, a health and safety test every 3 years, 3 years in college at a considerable cost does not prove competancy, but someone doing a electrical trainee course can nearly jump straaight on the tools.
part p yearly registration is a joke, the fact that only a person with altzimers or amnesia could forget how to do there job on a yearly basis.
all of the above are putting people off going the proper route and we are going to end up with many cowboys out there as they can see that all this type of policing of the trade is farcicle and profitering

 

[stef]

That is the trouble, oldtimer: THIS government simply says too much but doesn't put into action what it did say. As long as there is a fair share involved nothing is going to change for the better (for us). By the way, THIS government includes the previous ones as well

 

[oldtimer]

Just to add to my post above we are told we need to be registered and in England there is the notifiable thing so sounds great a bit like you need a certain drug so you go to a licence chemist I get that as the are responsable and if they are breaking the regulations they lose their licence got that ??????.

So with all of our regulations why do we allow big sheds to sell sockets switches consumer units double insulated mains cables ????

And thats why this whole system is a bloody farce

 

[stef]

The orange shed is not licenced otherwise a black market for CUs and mains tails would be up and running in no time.