Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory

[brman]

If they have a background prior to taking the course solely as a transition into the industry then they don't ask the basic stupid questions and don't get accused of been a Electrical Trainee ..there's no wonder about how they were just utilising the course to dot the I's and cross the T's.... I don't attribute the Term 5 week wonder to such a person, I pin it on those with no background whatsoever who take the course then ask the most basic of questions to which make one cringe...these are what we call Electrical Trainee... just because they have taken the 5 week course does not mean the wonder tag is attached to them ... that would be a blanket tag which I don't do...I can't speak for others though.

That I am happy with. The trouble is that others appear to have a blanket "5 week courses should be banned and anyone taking them is an idiot" attitude. Even the select committee report appears to have that view. Hence various comments that you shouldn't be a QS if you don't have xyz bits of paper from a college, as if experience and sensible on the job learning means nothing.....
That annoys me as it is (imho) narrow minded and just plain wrong.

 

[MDJ]

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

No, what else can we call a Electrical Trainee? A 35 day wonder? A person with limited knowlege? A person who can only work in a house ? A person who is not really an electrician? I think Electrical Trainee is the kind way, then after a few years of experience they could progress to Electician, maybe.

 

[NickD]

If they have a background prior to taking the course solely as a transition into the industry then they don't ask the basic stupid questions and don't get accused of been a Electrical Trainee ..there's no wonder about how they were just utilising the course to dot the I's and cross the T's.... I don't attribute the Term 5 week wonder to such a person, I pin it on those with no background whatsoever who take the course then ask the most basic of questions to which make one cringe...these are what we call Electrical Trainee... just because they have taken the 5 week course does not mean the wonder tag is attached to them ... that would be a blanket tag which I don't do...I can't speak for others though.

But using the Electrical Trainee term carries with it the inherent suggestion that the problem is about those five weeks, it's right there in the term. So those who have done that short course route to combine with existing quals/exp to produce a perfectly competent domestic installer may feel a bit slighted that that term is being slung about. My suggestion is that if you want to suggest someone is not competent within the scope that they should be, then just say so and don't use some broadbrush label to tie that comment in to how they may have (failed to) learn or how long it took. Perhaps just "useless jerk" or something.

 

[Adam W]

Also I think the 2-3 year to 5 week comparison is flawed. those of you did CG2330 on evening college courses only did one evening a week (4 hours) and at least 6 weeks you don't go. So 46 x 0.5 days = 23 days a year (4.6 weeks). So a 2 year course would be less than 10 weeks at college. Not such a big gap now is it.

That's a bit different - while a 'fast track' 2330 may be fine for someone who has worked in the industry for years but never been to college, the 'Electrical Trainee' course is generally just a load of short courses stuck together:
C&G 2382 in looking up regs in a book (branded as '17th edition),
C&G 2393 introduction into building regs (branded as 'part P')
C&G 2392 introduction into inspection & testing
C&G 2377 appliance testing (not sure why this is included in what's branded as a 'Domestic' installer course)
plus some sort of health & safety test and some course in setting yourself up as a business.

These tend to be directed at people who want to move into a lucrative new career in the shortest amount of time and think it usually takes a matter of years because traditionally being a tradesman is what you end up as if you messed about at school and an intelligent person (such as them self) should be able to pick it up in a matter of weeks, or someone who has previously worked in something like IT and considers a move into electrical installation a step down.

Once they've finished the course and come on here asking for advice, that kind of 'I'm better than you' and 'you owe me a living' attitude and excuse of 'I had no other option' is still apparent, and gets people's backs up.
The Electrical Trainee course seems to show what you can achieve, open up possibilities and suck up to the delegates to make them think they've got value for money, while going to college for years teaches you your limits and shows you what you don't know.

 

[pepparz]

Calling them a useless jerk would be ineffective as it doesn't convey the disappointment felt by others when angered by their short cut to sparkydom.

 

[Darkwood]

But using the Electrical Trainee term carries with it the inherent suggestion that the problem is about those five weeks, it's right there in the term. So those who have done that short course route to combine with existing quals/exp to produce a perfectly competent domestic installer may feel a bit slighted that that term is being slung about. My suggestion is that if you want to suggest someone is not competent within the scope that they should be, then just say so and don't use some broadbrush label to tie that comment in to how they may have (failed to) learn or how long it took. Perhaps just "useless jerk" or something.

The Electrical Trainee term ill agree now has a one tag fits all but you me or anyone on here using the term are not at blame ....its the mis-selling greedy tutoring schemes that have tarred what was a course that only originally attracted a few small previous experienced students, when they realised they could actually pass students with no background and issue them with a cert' to work in electrics albeit with no competence or experience the courses exploded into every corner of the UK and massive profits were made... the fallout of this is a general Tag of %WW which has even been termed in televised debates...its a tag that will prevail until they stop sending out ill prepared people on false hopes into what is a very dangerous and professional job.

 

[NickD]

The Electrical Trainee term ill agree now has a one tag fits all but you me or anyone on here using the term are not at blame ....its the mis-selling greedy tutoring schemes that have tarred what was a course that only originally attracted a few small previous experienced students, when they realised they could actually pass students with no background and issue them with a cert' to work in electrics albeit with no competence or experience the courses exploded into every corner of the UK and massive profits were made... the fallout of this is a general Tag of %WW which has even been termed in televised debates...its a tag that will prevail until they stop sending out ill prepared people on false hopes into what is a very dangerous and professional job.

Yeah but at the end of the day if you are someone who has come through that route in a justifiable way from justifiable quals/exp and come out of it as a still learning (who isn't) but competent-within-their-scope domestic installer, and then you see this Electrical Trainee term bandied about, then regardless of it being the fault of the bad behaviour of private colleges and ill-advised students and etc. you are going to feel tarred with that brush. In terms of it being a tag that will prevail, it'll prevail until people decide not to use it.

 

[NickD]

Once they've finished the course and come on here asking for advice, that kind of 'I'm better than you' and 'you owe me a living' attitude.

Bit off topic, but IMHO it's a bad idea to unnecessarily judge someone's attitude based only on what they write in an Internet posting. Compared to a face-to-face conversation, you are missing about 70% of the information, is a figure I saw quoted once (pacing, tone, volume, body language, facial expressions, etc. etc.). If I judge someone's attitude from an internet posting the risk is my conclusion says more about my own assumptions and prejudices than it does about their attitude. This is why forum/comments discussions descend so readily into a slanging match the people would never dream of having in person.

 

[markc123]

Bit off topic, but IMHO it's a bad idea to unnecessarily judge someone's attitude based only on what they write in an Internet posting. Compared to a face-to-face conversation, you are missing about 70% of the information, is a figure I saw quoted once (pacing, tone, volume, body language, facial expressions, etc. etc.). If I judge someone's attitude from an internet posting the risk is my conclusion says more about my own assumptions and prejudices than it does about their attitude. This is why forum/comments discussions descend so readily into a slanging match the people would never dream of having in person.

I get that ... but then again, you can't have the face/face argument/coversastion ... so as wrong it sounds, all you can go on is what someone writes ... if it's written terribly and assumptions are made then that's the fault of the OP in my opinion - it could be a wrong opinion, sure, the OP could know exactly what he's on about ... but then he should spend abit more time with the post and re-read it before submitting.

And we're all guilty of that, i've dropped clangers on here and been picked up on them immediatley, so, not sure why a new poster should get treated any differently to be honest.

This is slightly off topic aswell, but if someone was to come here and say ...

"im not an electrician, i was just wondering whether or not you could advise me on X, if not i'll get a real spark in"
OR
"Im newly qualified, im unsure of this - i'd go about it like X but im not sure if this is correct...any advise?"

.... something like them wouldn't get any abuse what so ever ... it's when people turn up with fantasy stories, and when genuine helpful members are trying to decypher what the poster is on about it soon becomes evident that people are not being up front OR when someone comes just expecting answers without having ago themselves. - and this is when the slagging starts IMO.


On a side note, im done with the slagging on this forum - i genuinley can't even be arsed anymore - some people do deserve to be shot down on here, and some don't who are ... i'll leave that too glenn and the gang to decide. I'd hate this forum to get to the stage where people are scared to ask questions though.

 

[Darkwood]

Yeah but at the end of the day if you are someone who has come through that route in a justifiable way from justifiable quals/exp and come out of it as a still learning (who isn't) but competent-within-their-scope domestic installer, and then you see this Electrical Trainee term bandied about, then regardless of it being the fault of the bad behaviour of private colleges and ill-advised students and etc. you are going to feel tarred with that brush. In terms of it being a tag that will prevail, it'll prevail until people decide not to use it.

There are Electrical Trainee as the tag goes that I hold in high respect on this forum who go the extra mile and know their stuff and yes they have 'come out' par'se to admit their path to their new found career but all except one has previous related experience and the one who doesn't I class as one of the few who excel naturally, the other 95% doing the courses are ill prepared, lack experience and tricked into a big scam that is still ongoing ...the tag will damage this abuse of these money grabbing schemes and if it comes at the expense of a few good genuine good sparks then be it as their own talent will ensure their career but the tag serves as a deterrent and a message the bigwigs who have already called up and discussed the issue.

The faster these schemes disappear the better, its caused a wage drop in the industry which is already taken a blow from recession and gives no positive effects.. all practicing electricians should in my mind go through the full course and they should bring back the old style courses prior to the dumbing down to keep ill educated school kids off the streets.

 

[NickD]

I get that ... but then again, you can't have the face/face argument/coversastion ... so as wrong it sounds, all you can go on is what someone writes ...

Yeah, but the sensible person who is aware of that limitation, makes the effort to make as few assumptions as possible, and so doesn't just blithely make assumptions about the posters attitude even though they don't need to. In this context, if in doubt assume the best of people, I always think.

 

[NickD]

There are Electrical Trainee as the tag goes that I hold in high respect on this forum who go the extra mile and know their stuff and yes they have 'come out' par'se to admit their path to their new found career but all except one has previous related experience and the one who doesn't I class as one of the few who excel naturally, the other 95% doing the courses are ill prepared, lack experience and tricked into a big scam that is still ongoing ...the tag will damage this abuse of these money grabbing schemes and if it comes at the expense of a few good genuine good sparks then be it as their own talent will ensure their career but the tag serves as a deterrent and a message the bigwigs who have already called up and discussed the issue.

The faster these schemes disappear the better, its caused a wage drop in the industry which is already taken a blow from recession and gives no positive effects.. all practicing electricians should in my mind go through the full course and they should bring back the old style courses prior to the dumbing down to keep ill educated school kids off the streets.

Fair enough, a very valid point of view.

 

[Adam W]

Yeah, but the sensible person who is aware of that limitation, makes the effort to make as few assumptions as possible, and so doesn't just blithely make assumptions about the posters attitude even though they don't need to. In this context, if in doubt assume the best of people, I always think.

It's not really "blithely making assumptions" if they've given you the information.
It works both ways as well - some people come here trying to cadge free information, you try to help and they just turn round and have a go at you. Why should I try to help someone like that?

 

[NickD]

It's not really "blithely making assumptions" if they've given you the information.
It works both ways as well - some people come here trying to cadge free information, you try to help and they just turn round and have a go at you. Why should I try to help someone like that?

Well, if you're sure.

 

[gnuuser]

Im not there in the UK but i agree with most of you guys that a 5 week course is not adequate at all.
now if it was considered as an introductory and familiarization course with assignment to apprenticeship that would be different.
for the most part they would be registered as apprentice and in training.
competent? no! qualified to train as a spark ? yes!
believe me ive seen a few that shouldn't even be trained to wipe a dogs butt