Domestic Installers Course - Ummmm!!

[bobit200]

I know this question has probably been asked a dozen times, just need some clarification on a few things. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just been made redundant. Been thinking of doing a Domestic Installer Course for several years as I wish to pursue new work avenues. My idea was to take one of the many available courses so I could become a Domestic Installer and get approved by one of the bodies so I can sign off my own work. I would eventually like to go down the Solar PV route having a specific interest in the area. If I go ahead, pass the course and become approved would I be OK to just go out there and work on a self-employed basis doing general domestic electrical work in my local area? I hear the market is a bit saturated at the moment (is this true?) so the likely hood is I will have to do something else as well?
I was thinking of doing the 18 day domestic course at tradeskills4u this will give me the following quals:-

City & Guilds 4141-01 - Electrical Installation Work within a Domestic Dwelling

City & Guilds 2393 – Part P Building Regulations

City & guilds 2392-10 – Inspection & Testing Course

City & Guilds 2382-12 – 17th Edition Wiring Regulations (Including latest amendments)

Would this be a good starting point to become a domestic installer and does anyone have any experience with tradeskills4u? Apart from OLCI, who seem expensive and very pushy are they any other training centres in and around the Leeds, Manchester areas people would recommend?

Also, I hear that the government is about to completely change these courses, increasing the time period to 8 weeks training. Is this true and how will it affect those individuals who have passed the course but not yet approved?

Thanks.

 

[Des 56]

Here we go with one of my endless rants

Lets give the guy his due
He has not hidden behind a bush,he has come on here and defended his position as per the requests

The guy is in business responding to and creating demand for his product ( ie the ultra quick course that he wrongly announces as adequate for domestic installation)
In all of the above,I can't really fault him

The problem of quick fix courses was a result of the government creating a list of acceptable qualifications that enabled a person to register for the Part p nonsense
The list included the regulations add on accepted as if it were a core qualification

How many adverts are seen for employment, where they seek a 17th edition electrician
No mention of core qualifications because most are now advertised by the agency scum who wouldn't hardly know what a core qualification actually entails

With the government list mentioned above comes the action of the competent person schemes
In a competetive world where numbers = income,they were happy to seek the lowest common denominator
The Niceic are the bogey boys in this regard,it was they who accepted the regulations exam as suitable entry qualification,and still do to this day
At least Napit played its part by asking for a 2391 initially,but they succumbed to the numbers game and watered down the requirement by allowing 12 months to get it or their fraudulant equivelent

It was the Niceic who created the domestic installer name tag and the Niceic who permitted the arena for these training companies to sieze the golden opportunity of fast track,high cost inadequate training

if we could go back in time and stipulate JIB qualification for part p registration,the Niceic may not have corrupted our industry and the training providers would be concentrating on higher level qualification to its students

It was all about supply and demand.the government created the market,the schemes grabbed their opportunity of member numbers, at any cost to skill set, the training companies responded to the market with the short courses and the promise of riches beyond the wildest of dreams

Niow ask me why I detest the Niceic and why I detest agencies and why I can sympathise with the training providers aims
They may not be in our best interest,but we are not their customer so why should they be concerned with pleasing us

 

[telectrix]

totally agree. the govt. created the market, then swamped it with under qualified johnny foreigners by their open door immigration policies, then some bright spark in the civil service came up with the idea of creating our own home grown under qualified sparks as a means of avoiding being branded a racist. enter the Electrical Trainee courses.

 

[markc123]

The scheme providers might approve but i don't think it's all joy and grace.

My elecsa assessor hates these short coures with a passion and he said heated debates about them get often struck up in house.

Not all bright lights behind the scenes.

 

[markc123]

All it'd take is literally all us electricians to club together and bypass the NIC/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT...then it'd be over.

However, easier said than done and i like everyone else have no idea how we'd be able to do this. The NIC have wormed there way into every nuck and cranny like a aids ridden worm.

 

[telectrix]

a possible way forward would be for ALL JIB approved/qualified sparks to dump their scam providers, notify LABC via email of all notifiable jobs completed, then when LABC kick off because there's no scam involved, then say "prosecute me then".

 

[Tiny Spark]

The courses we offer are an excellent way to enter the industry

That says it all for me.

Enter the industry maybe, Be allowed to run rampant in peoples homes I think not.

I would not hire one to work in my home or recommend one, I would want someone who is time served and with a proven track record.
After all most work is by word of mouth.

 

[telectrix]

or........ get a load of sparks to pay a shark ( sorry , lawyer ) to bring a test case under the restrictive practices banner.

 

[longboat]

All it'd take is literally all us electricians to club together and bypass the NIC/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT...then it'd be over.

However, easier said than done and i like everyone else have no idea how we'd be able to do this. The NIC have wormed there way into every nuck and cranny like a aids ridden worm.

As i have said, and others on this forum. You no longer need to pay your hard earned to a part pish scam scheme.
If you can show the LABC that you have the relevant qual's you will still be able to self-sertify your own work.
Regrretably those sert's will probs be the same one's gained on a good use of redundancy money.

 

[markc123]

As i have said, and others on this forum. You no longer need to pay your hard earned to a part pish scam scheme.
If you can show the LABC that you have the relevant qual's you will still be able to self-sertify your own work.
Regrretably those sert's will probs be the same one's gained on a good use of redundancy money.

I see your point, but there are certain 'big' comapines that won't employ/subby anyone without being a member of a scam.

I do quite alot of works for holiday park's these days and bourne leisure & park resorts wont use you unless your a member of a scam.

 

[Tommy T]

I'm not sure if you lot were born sparkys or just fear someone new coming into the industry.

There's a lot of people who are discrediting the courses this guy wants to do and suggesting that lack of experience is more of a hinderance.

It's true that experience counts for a lot and that's why he is here, to ask for your experience, you all got yours from someone and who's to say he doesn't go on and get it from someone who has the belief in him that he can provide a good service.

Embarking on a new career takes guts and normally it's that determination that sets skilled tradespersons apart from cowboys.

I've missed out the last few pages of this thread as it seems to be the same old retort so I apologise if I'm repeating what someone has said.

I come to this Forum to see what problems people encounter and I try and solve them and see how other people solve them. I have enormous respect for the experienced people on here and their names come up again and again but please fellas, if you think that you are better than anyone else just because you have been doing it longer than anyone else then it's only a matter of time before someone is better than you.

I hope the original poster is not put off, I hope we can all be a bit more humble and open to this discussion topic.

 

[markc123]

I'm not sure if you lot were born sparkys or just fear someone new coming into the industry. What are you on about? People new come into the industry all the time - and aslong as they go down the correct channels it's completley fine.

There's a lot of people who are discrediting the courses this guy wants to do and suggesting that lack of experience is more of a hinderance. And for good reason.

It's true that experience counts for a lot and that's why he is here, to ask for your experience, you all got yours from someone and who's to say he doesn't go on and get it from someone who has the belief in him that he can provide a good service. To ask for our experience, erm you don't get experience online.

Embarking on a new career takes guts and normally it's that determination that sets skilled tradespersons apart from cowboys. What? Embark on the new career, yes, but go down the correct avenue.

I've missed out the last few pages of this thread as it seems to be the same old retort so I apologise if I'm repeating what someone has said. Don't worry, theres only a select few regular visitors on here that for some reason unknown to mankind accept these courses.

I come to this Forum to see what problems people encounter and I try and solve them and see how other people solve them. I have enormous respect for the experienced people on here and their names come up again and again but please fellas, if you think that you are better than anyone else just because you have been doing it longer than anyone else then it's only a matter of time before someone is better than you. You have a post count of 9 - that's hardly helping solve peoples problems. And before you chirp up, no im not suggesting incompetence. I am sure you are a fully respected, hardworking and experienced tradesman. Nobody is thinking they are better than anyone, you are missing the point. We have spent years to train ourselves - and then someone comes and undermines us by inventing these pathetic 5week courses.

I hope the original poster is not put off, I hope we can all be a bit more humble and open to this discussion topic. I hope he is put off, because he is wasting 5k and wont be employable. Don't defend the indefenisble.

My thoughts in red.

And just a side note - Tommy, there is ways people over the age of 21 can learn without doing an apprentership. They are called night courses and give people the PROPER qualifications. The problem is they take a few years - people want the quick fix of 5weeks.

Nothing to stop them doing the proper qualifications on night courses now is there?

 

[UNG]

I'm not sure if you lot were born sparkys or just fear someone new coming into the industry.

It's probably fair to say that a lot of us could be termed "career sparks" who left school and did an apprenticeship and have been in the industry ever since. I have no problem with people entering the industry with proper training and a few weeks don't count

There's a lot of people who are discrediting the courses this guy wants to do and suggesting that lack of experience is more of a hinderance.

I'm still waiting for Tradeskills4U or someone else to tell me what a C&G 4141 - 01 course is as C&G don't acknowledge it's existence on their website so how can it be a recognised qualification

It's true that experience counts for a lot and that's why he is here, to ask for your experience, you all got yours from someone and who's to say he doesn't go on and get it from someone who has the belief in him that he can provide a good service.

Experience is gained from being supervised and guided on site not from a forum as some sort of distance learning exercise while assuming you are qualified

Embarking on a new career takes guts and normally it's that determination that sets skilled tradespersons apart from cowboys.

Determination & Guts = spending a lot of time and effort in gaining the correct qualifications over a number of years.

It is not throwing £4 - 5k at courses and think it is going to happen in weeks and then having a strop on here because people question your quals and experince

I've missed out the last few pages of this thread as it seems to be the same old retort so I apologise if I'm repeating what someone has said.

Could be taken both ways as you are making the same old tired comments

I come to this Forum to see what problems people encounter and I try and solve them and see how other people solve them. I have enormous respect for the experienced people on here and their names come up again and again but please fellas, if you think that you are better than anyone else just because you have been doing it longer than anyone else then it's only a matter of time before someone is better than you.

By the nature of the qualifications dished out by these 5 minute wonder training organisations and the dumbing down of the industry can you really see this happening

I hope the original poster is not put off,

If all he is going to do is a quick course then I hope he heeds the advice given and looks elsewhere for a career change or does it properly and takes the time to get real qualifications

I hope we can all be a bit more humble and open to this discussion topic.

Not sure how much more open we can be the truth is that the truth often hurts, offends and upsets it would be wrong in my opinion to put on the rose tinted glasses and treat such an issue as this without highlighting the problems and reservations we have when basic questions are asked

 

[Tradeskills4u]

I'm still waiting for Tradeskills4U or someone else to tell me what a C&G 4141 - 01 course is as C&G don't acknowledge it's existence on their website so how can it be a recognised qualification

Hi UNG,

The City & Guilds 4141-01 is a course that we developed here at Trade Skills 4U. The course is accredited by City & Guilds but is not available to other centres hence why it is not listed on the website. You can call City & Guilds to confirm this if you like.

We developed this course to train installers in the key circuits that are installed in a domestic environment and it is 5 days of hands on installation training. Full course information can be found here.

The course was accredited by City & Guilds back in 2012 almost a year to today in fact. We are very proud that the course was accredited by City and Guilds and it shows that we deliver courses of the highest quality.

The course has also been vetted by and accepted into the IET Centre of Excellence again confirming the quality of the training on offer.

This course was developed by members of our team who have years and years of installation experience. The same team members also work with City & Guilds to develop new course such as the City & Guilds 2394, 2395 and 2396 qualifications.

I am assuming despite both the IET and C&G recognising this course you will still dismiss it outright. I am not expecting to change your perspective with this post as you seem set on dismissing any course that allows people to start out in the industry.

In every industry people have to start somewhere and education happens to be where most will start. We are in the business of upskilling people and raising standards and I am still surprised just how much negativity we get on these forums.

Have a look at the full range of courses we offer. There are loads not just for new entrants but also for very experienced guys like yourself. We cater for all and don't have an agenda, we simply respond to the demands of the industry.

 

[UNG]

Hi Chris

Thanks for your response re the C&G 4141 - 01 course

The City & Guilds 4141-01 is a course that we developed here at Trade Skills 4U. The course is accredited by City & Guilds but is not available to other centres hence why it is not listed on the website. You can call City & Guilds to confirm this if you like.

We developed this course to train installers in the key circuits that are installed in a domestic environment and it is 5 days of hands on installation training. Full course information can be found here.

Having looked at the course synopsis what can I say that is not going to be negative

A 5 Day in - house designed course with an in - house assessment at the end. I don't think I will be alone in saying that the course seems lacking both in duration and content and at a mere £509 everyone can become an "electrician" in a week

The course was accredited by City & Guilds back in 2012 almost a year to today in fact. We are very proud that the course was accredited by City and Guilds and it shows that we deliver courses of the highest quality.

The course has also been vetted by and accepted into the IET Centre of Excellence again confirming the quality of the training on offer.

Whilst the quality of the training may be outstanding the content is lacking no mention of different metering arrangements (E.G. Economy 7) and central heating controls while I appreciate that this is an installation course there is no mention of fault finding or any additional courses to cover this just to highlight a few misgivings and possible oversights by your experienced team

This course was developed by members of our team who have years and years of installation experience. The same team members also work with City & Guilds to develop new course such as the City & Guilds 2394, 2395 and 2396 qualifications.

I am assuming despite both the IET and C&G recognising this course you will still dismiss it outright. I am not expecting to change your perspective with this post as you seem set on dismissing any course that allows people to start out in the industry.

If you are working so closely with the C&G can I suggest you ask them to put some sort of accredited courses section on their web site and so provide a readily accessible register of accredited courses, providers and assessors

I am open to change but find it difficult to understand how people "who have years and years of installation experience" can put together a course that is so minimal and at best is at advanced DIY level from what I can see

In every industry people have to start somewhere and education happens to be where most will start. We are in the business of upskilling people and raising standards and I am still surprised just how much negativity we get on these forums.

I can only agree that people have to start somewhere and on a positive note the C&G 2365 course you offer (and it's on the C&G website) actually looks to be a reasonable course as it appears to deliver a lot more theory and better prepare somebody for entry in the industry than the C&G 4141 - 01 taster course you offer

With regard to upskilling and raising standards may be all the quick course providers need to look at some of the stupid questions posted on this forum and review their training and courses accordingly this may go some way to reducing the negativity aimed at the all the quick training providers

Have a look at the full range of courses we offer. There are loads not just for new entrants but also for very experienced guys like yourself. We cater for all and don't have an agenda, we simply respond to the demands of the industry.

I don't think there is any negativity to all your courses only those that produce "electricians" in a week

Is the industry really demanding this quick training as this forum in your own words is very negative towards these courses that appear to be driven by profit before conscience throughout the hierarchy of the industry IMO the 17th edition has gone along way to cover up potential fatalities from this training with the RCD's on everything policy that is now in place


Once again Chris thanks for your response and hope you better understand my misgivings but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the short courses

 

[Darkwood]

Another area these fast track courses and even the full courses fail to address is the saturation of the market we now have of lightly educated low experienced 'Electricians'.

The electrical industry is now so saturated with these quick route sparkies that we are seeing poor workmanship rising as well as wages crashing .... i mean why pay a competent well trained and experienced Electrician 25quid an hour when Mr 7day or 3/5 week wonder will do it at a fraction and in most cases a poor job of it .. as UNG points out the level of questions on this forum has really taken a nose dive since the introduction of fast track courses and range from everything like 'Thinking rcd's give overload protection' to 'why can't you use Earth as a circuit Neutral? The DNO do!'...... these are from qualified on paper but not competent fast track sparkies...

Im sorry but when you pedal through pass after pass with exam of multi-choice questions which can be easily tailored to increase pass rates by asking the same questions but ensuring the wrong answers are glaringly silly then this does not show a students understanding it shows he can distinguish the stupid answers and thus is left with the correct one.

I like to see you create a written exam only that commands a set of questions that can only be answered if the student has a good understanding of what he has been taught....and watch your pass rates plummet....unfortunately while profit is key and the more students the better the temptation is and has been evident is to appeal to the prospective student with a shorter course than other schemes while consistently using the term Electrician.

View the forum history and you'll find a high number of people asking the same question... i have this qualification does this make me an Electrician?.... TBH if they are asking this then these schemes are mis-selling the courses or they would be clear as to where they stood in the industry.

I don't see and training schemes reflecting the current state of the industry when taking the money off people ....domestic is saturated and the many experienced electricians are looking for work so how about for warning the students about the reality of things hence thats why Training with an apprenticeship works because if you cant find anyone to take you on then you cant do the course... a self regulating system that has been torn apart for greed.