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I understand the media never let the truth get in the way of a good story and some are owned by oligarchs or whatever, but it suggest something, when was it just the Scottish Herald who supported the Yes campaign. Their reasons may be financial, but it's still suggests a reasoning to keep the Union?
 
I understand the media never let the truth get in the way of a good story and some are owned by oligarchs or whatever, but it suggest something, when was it just the Scottish Herald who supported the Yes campaign. Their reasons may be financial, but it's still suggests a reasoning to keep the Union?

Is that you, using different words, again trying to suggest that the media is an accurate reflection of public opinion ?

If that's your point, again, its simply wrong.

The only point you've made that I will argee with is that the mass of the media were in the NO camp.
 
Stop shouting, we are having an adult debate.

So why in your opinion were the mass media in the No camp?

What an odd response.

no one is shouting - NO was capitalised to simply indicate a "no" associated with a campaign, as opposed to a non capitized no as in "no sugar please" - in the same manner as you've opted to similarly use a capital letter - full marks for pettinesses I'll give you that.

I've got no opinion on why the mass media were preaching for the no/No/NO camp
 
What an odd response.

no one is shouting - NO was capitalised to simply indicate a "no" associated with a campaign, as opposed to a non capitized no as in "no sugar please" - in the same manner as you've opted to similarly use a capital letter - full marks for pettinesses I'll give you that.

I've got no opinion on why the mass media were preaching for the no/No/NO camp

I wasn't referring to 'No', but apologies, it sounded as if you were shouting. Back to the debate. But there must be a reason why the majority of media were in the No camp, ideological, financial, empowerment?
 
I wasn't referring to 'No', but apologies, it sounded as if you were shouting. Back to the debate. But there must be a reason why the majority of media were in the No camp, ideological, financial, empowerment?

Undoubtedly there will be reasons, perhaps including those you mentioned and many many more - I'm trying to encourage folks to not walk sheep like into believing they reflect public opinion, rather they bend, con, lie, contrive (often illegally) to alter some of the more gulable folks views - and this affects how they vote.

Folks are lazy, you'll have seen opinions being expressed on this thread which are a result of just reading headlines, or just reading the output of certain sections of our media - lazy folks love being spoon fed, we live in a world full of sound bites and four word headlines - many folks simply gobble them up as gospel, and the media loves feeding them.
 
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Not all of it is untruths, I'm speaking generally. Often embellished, litatious, out & out lie, but most often an element of truth or even fact. You decide what you want to believe. You have to listen & read it, otherwise how else do you find out what's going on where you live, let alone the world.
 
You simply have to find other sources which, over a period of time, show themsleves to be more trustworthy. The referendum campaign was a very good case in point, although by no means the only example of the MSM taking a very one-eyed view. To illustrate what I mean, let's just examine how the print and some of the TV news media approached the referendum. The reporting of all but one Scottish, and all the UK national papers was 'SNP bad'. The SNP government, duly elected, fulfilled its election commitment to an independence referendum. Having signed the Edinburgh Agreement, they set about arranging the details. Meanwhile, a broad coalition of different political, business and other interests formed the Yes! campaign. From day one, the media simply ignored the cross-party, cross-interest nature of the Yes! campaign and labelled every one of its actions as being SNP driven. They repeatedly referred to the 'utopia' promised by the SNP (not Yes!), a word never once used by anyone in the Yes! group. They constantly referred to oil revenues, again, a factor never relied on by the campaign. In fact, they sudiously avoided talking about oil revenues as a reason for independence, although they were quite rightly critical of the way that those revenues had been squandered by successive UK governments. They raised non-issue after non-issue, mostly because Better Together couldn't come up with very much in the way of argument, other than naked flag waving. The Scottish Daily Record, followed blindly by the Mail et al. excelled itself by front paging The Vow, that utterly meaningless promise issued by the mainstream parties via Gordon Brown. The major UK politicians, having shown no desire to get involved, suddenly appeared en masse in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Cameron, having backed away constantly from an open debate with Nicola Sturgeon, suddenly caved and then wished he hadn't. He, at least according to even the anti-independence press, had his clock cleaned. Despite all of this, the media continued relentlessly.

Since the referendum, the onslaught hasn't let up. The Forth Road Bridge is an excellent example. The SNP were blamed for stopping a maintenance regime they didin't stop. The Bitter Together mob accused them of using Chinese steel and causing the demise of TaTa Steel plants in Scotland and England. Facts didn't matter. TaTa had the opportunity to tender and chose not to. But hey, why let that fact get in the way of a good 'SNP Bad' story?

Now, if you need to ask questions like the one you've just asked, frankly you're not paying much attention to how the media in this country behave. News is no longer sought, it's bought. So, I tend to check with alternative news sources. Over a period of time, as truth emerges, I'm able to gauge the trustworthiness of a particular source. Of the major sources, I've found that, often, you could do worse tha Al-Jazeera. Of the UK's TV news sources, I guess you could say Channel 4 News isn't terrible. For the rest, spend ten minutes watching BBC Breakfast and you'll see what's wrong with news programming. We're treated to a couple of mindless twits waffling about Yoga for Dogs. It's all part of the dumbinf down process so beloved of our political masters. If we don't question anything, we don't question them. Their receivedwisdom becomes ours. Yesterday, on Facebook, I shared a Newsthump story about Carol Kirkwood having slipped and described the weather as 'cold as f***'. Never midn that Newsthump is a known satirical site, the story seemed obvious enough a hoax that everybody would see through it. Boy, was I ever wrong. The biggest reaction came from the moral brigade. You know, swearing is a sign of a lack of vocabulary, that kind of cliche. We often use, "It's in the paper, so it must be true", but it's actually turning out to be true.
 
Murdoch, you're reading something into Nicola Sturgeon's statements that she isn't even trying to imply. There is no implication, there is only fact. Scotland, as has been conceded by others here, is a sovereign nation and, as such, has the indisputable right to self determination. That doesn't mean every now and then, that means as and when its people choose. Scotland isn't a subsidiary of UK Plc, it's a partner in the UK. Partnerships dissolve all the time, sometimes acrimoniously, sometimes amicably. If and when Scotland exercises that will to leave, then it can and will leave. How the partnership dissolves depends on how the various parties act, but throwing the toys out of the pram won't have any effect on the end result. Now, one thing could change that; England, as another sovereign partner, could decide to dissolve that partnership, but that seems unlikely. In fact, it seems pretty unlikely that Scotland will choose to leave any time soon, but that'll be up to us. It's almost exactly the same kind of right which the UK will exercise one way or the other over Europe.

I can't see Scotland listed anywhere as a sovereign state in it's own right only as part of the UK and most of your post implies that if Scotland does go independent that they will automatically assume the same world status as the UK does now without hindrance

Undoubtedly there will be reasons, perhaps including those you mentioned and many many more - I'm trying to encourage folks to not walk sheep like into believing they reflect public opinion, rather they bend, con, lie, contrive (often illegally) to alter some of the more gulable folks views - and this affects how they vote.

Folks are lazy, you'll have seen opinions being expressed on this thread which are a result of just reading headlines, or just reading the output of certain sections of our media - lazy folks love being spoon fed, we live in a world full of sound bites and four word headlines - many folks simply gobble them up as gospel, and the media loves feeding them.

Your opinions castigating other posters information sources is typical of a lot of posters in these debates have you ever thought your stance is because you are being spoon fed information that suits your view point

Rather than reading the media try looking at the balance sheets you can only spend money once no matter how many things you want to buy with the same money

You simply have to find other sources which, over a period of time, show themsleves to be more trustworthy. The referendum campaign was a very good case in point, although by no means the only example of the MSM taking a very one-eyed view. To illustrate what I mean, let's just examine how the print and some of the TV news media approached the referendum. The reporting of all but one Scottish, and all the UK national papers was 'SNP bad'. The SNP government, duly elected, fulfilled its election commitment to an independence referendum. Having signed the Edinburgh Agreement, they set about arranging the details. Meanwhile, a broad coalition of different political, business and other interests formed the Yes! campaign. From day one, the media simply ignored the cross-party, cross-interest nature of the Yes! campaign and labelled every one of its actions as being SNP driven. They repeatedly referred to the 'utopia' promised by the SNP (not Yes!), a word never once used by anyone in the Yes! group. They constantly referred to oil revenues, again, a factor never relied on by the campaign. In fact, they sudiously avoided talking about oil revenues as a reason for independence, although they were quite rightly critical of the way that those revenues had been squandered by successive UK governments. They raised non-issue after non-issue, mostly because Better Together couldn't come up with very much in the way of argument, other than naked flag waving. The Scottish Daily Record, followed blindly by the Mail et al. excelled itself by front paging The Vow, that utterly meaningless promise issued by the mainstream parties via Gordon Brown. The major UK politicians, having shown no desire to get involved, suddenly appeared en masse in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Cameron, having backed away constantly from an open debate with Nicola Sturgeon, suddenly caved and then wished he hadn't. He, at least according to even the anti-independence press, had his clock cleaned. Despite all of this, the media continued relentlessly.

Since the referendum, the onslaught hasn't let up. The Forth Road Bridge is an excellent example. The SNP were blamed for stopping a maintenance regime they didin't stop. The Bitter Together mob accused them of using Chinese steel and causing the demise of TaTa Steel plants in Scotland and England. Facts didn't matter. TaTa had the opportunity to tender and chose not to. But hey, why let that fact get in the way of a good 'SNP Bad' story?

Now, if you need to ask questions like the one you've just asked, frankly you're not paying much attention to how the media in this country behave. News is no longer sought, it's bought. So, I tend to check with alternative news sources. Over a period of time, as truth emerges, I'm able to gauge the trustworthiness of a particular source. Of the major sources, I've found that, often, you could do worse tha Al-Jazeera. Of the UK's TV news sources, I guess you could say Channel 4 News isn't terrible. For the rest, spend ten minutes watching BBC Breakfast and you'll see what's wrong with news programming. We're treated to a couple of mindless twits waffling about Yoga for Dogs. It's all part of the dumbinf down process so beloved of our political masters. If we don't question anything, we don't question them. Their receivedwisdom becomes ours. Yesterday, on Facebook, I shared a Newsthump story about Carol Kirkwood having slipped and described the weather as 'cold as f***'. Never midn that Newsthump is a known satirical site, the story seemed obvious enough a hoax that everybody would see through it. Boy, was I ever wrong. The biggest reaction came from the moral brigade. You know, swearing is a sign of a lack of vocabulary, that kind of cliche. We often use, "It's in the paper, so it must be true", but it's actually turning out to be true.

Throughout the referendum campaign I don't recall it was ever clear how Scotland was going to finance it's ambitions without the oil revenue. A lot of creative accounting was used by both sides during the campaign but the yes campaigns financials seemed to include figures on one side then ignore them on the other and then there were those costs not acounted for at all

If independence had happened Scotland wanted to contract out various government functions DVLA, Passports, the armed forces etc etc because it had already paid for them, in the various debates and interviews the inference was there that they would pay a contribution to the running costs of the functions they used but it may be less than the actual cost to supply them for those north of the border. This psuedo independence that wee eck proposed was in my opinion designed to get peoples backs up south of the border it was all down to how much Scotland could milk the rest of the UK for

Strange you criticise other posters information sources it would be interesting to know how you decide that Al Jazzera is a credible source. During the referendum campaign there was various documents produced by all the parties did you actually read any of them or where they not credible enough for you to get a balanced view

It is strange that since the oil price and therefore revenue from it has dropped the politicians have gone quiet on the subject
 
I can't see Scotland listed anywhere as a sovereign state in it's own right only as part of the UK and most of your post implies that if Scotland does go independent that they will automatically assume the same world status as the UK does now without hindrance



I don't know how otherwise to expess it, other than the way I did. Scotland entered into a Treaty of Union with England, but irs Parliament was never abolished, simply held in recess. That situation ended in 1998 with The Scotland Act. We are now, and always have been, a sovereign nation, just as England is. What you don't know is not my responsibility. Membership of the EU, for example, does not exclude any member's sovereignty. I'm not sure why you think a simple act of political union would. As to achieving the same world status as the UK, I don't feel I implied any such thing, but since you bring it up, I'd hope we'd have more ambition than that.




Throughout the referendum campaign I don't recall it was ever clear how Scotland was going to finance it's ambitions without the oil revenue. A lot of creative accounting was used by both sides during the campaign but the yes campaigns financials seemed to include figures on one side then ignore them on the other and then there were those costs not acounted for at all

If independence had happened Scotland wanted to contract out various government functions DVLA, Passports, the armed forces etc etc because it had already paid for them, in the various debates and interviews the inference was there that they would pay a contribution to the running costs of the functions they used but it may be less than the actual cost to supply them for those north of the border. This psuedo independence that wee eck proposed was in my opinion designed to get peoples backs up south of the border it was all down to how much Scotland could milk the rest of the UK for

Strange you criticise other posters information sources it would be interesting to know how you decide that Al Jazzera is a credible source. During the referendum campaign there was various documents produced by all the parties did you actually read any of them or where they not credible enough for you to get a balanced view

It is strange that since the oil price and therefore revenue from it has dropped the politicians have gone quiet on the subject


Similarly to your apparent unwillingness to try to uderstand the subject of sovereignty, your lack of reading comprehension is a bit puzzling. I think I made it perfectly clear as to how I judge credibility or otherwise, but just because it's you, I'll try again. I read many sources. Over a period of time, clarity comes from events. If a source states onew thin and then, over a period of time, that transpires not to have been the case, then clearly misreporting has taken place. Thus, gradually, I can begin to judge who is attempting to get to the truth and who is not. It's not an exact science, but that's just not really possible with the vast amount of information swilling around in the ether.

Now, I'm not quite sure what your phrase 'contract out' was meant to convey, but it's an odd choice of words. Scotland's taxpayers, like those of Wales, England and Northern Ireland, fund government projects and effectively own public property. During the referendum campaign, the Westminster government suggested, completely disingenuously, that it could effectively simply refuse to share the family jewels. Even the Governor of the Bank of England bravely attempted to stop them spreading the lie, but they were not to be told. So here's how it works. First of all, currency. England, or 'rUK', however you wish to put it, does not 'own' the Bank of England, it owns a share of it. Similarly, it cannot stop anyone trading Sterling, nor using it as currency. Now Scotland did not want acrimony in the event of a yes vote, but Cameron and his minions set off down that very course. A few home truths were in order, so they were informed that it's as simple as this; if the 'rUK' (by the way, there would have been no such body, since the existence of the UK only occurs by virtue of the Treaty of Union) chose to attempt to deny Scotland its share of assets, jointly held between all parties, then it could not expect Scotland to service its share of UK debt. Now, I want you to think long and hard before replying. In what walk of human existence would anyone want to service another's debts? Scotland borrowed none of that money, nor did it have any say in its borrowing. It was though, prepared to act responsibly and accept its share of the debt, but only if assets were equably distributed. We didn't want the army, DVLA, Passport Offices nor any other assets, simply our share of them. You appear to think that somehow unfair. By the way, I'm absolutely mystified as to where you got the idea that Scotalnd wants to pay England for the use of its government services. Plenty of feasibility studies were carried out and, as expected, they uniformly found that transfer of governmet offices really wouldn't be all that difficult. All it really needed was the will. Hubris might have been a problem, but not likely for long.

As to the credibility or otherwise of campaign literature, I tend to pretty well ignore it. On the odd occasion I'm tempted to berak my own rules, it doesn't take long to remember why they exist.

Finally, get over yourself about the price of oil. I've repeatedly shown that the price of oil, or more importantly oil revenues, are not used in calculating Scotland's GDP, since Scotland doesn't accrue any oil revenues. Of course, oil prices have an effect on Scotland's economy. Many jobs in Scotland, as well as ancillary services, depend on oil, but that hardly makes us unique. Jobs, both domestically and internationally, depend on North Sea Oil. The point is, we have never seen oil as our long term strategy for success. That's why Scotland's leading the rest of the UK and a large part of Europe in renewable energy. We see the writing on the wall, and have done for a long time. As for going quiet, I can only suggest you spend a bit more time reading Scottish publications. You'll find plenty of references to North Sea Oil. Of course, reading the tabloid papers won't cut it. There's no sex involved.
 
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Once again this post has kept me logging in just to get an update, some facts, figures that I was unaware of.
So slightly getting back on track, as a North Sea oil worker of 25yrs offshore, in the past 12 months or so the industry has shed approx 65000 jobs across the sector, this also includes support services redundancies.
When will both governments (Westminster & Holyrood) finally start worrying and acting about this downturn.
When will Cam & Nic get together and have a chat about an industry that has supported many governments with fantastic returns from North Sea oil production over the past four decades.
Hardly a mention of these people out of work, if this had been a large factory within the UK with this amount of redundancies it would have been catastrophic headline news with plans to support these people, the impending job losses at the TaTa steel plants has created headlines, communities torn apart, no hope for the future, but what about my colleagues in the Oil industry, not a word......our leaders should hang their heads in shame.
The media keeps banging on everyday about the price of oil heading downwards, and how good it will be that fuel could hit 85p a litre.

For me I wish it was back at 120p a litre because I know that the oil has bounced back and those 65000 people have a chance of returning to their employers.

So in the big picture, Better Together or Independence mean not a jot to those 65000 unemployed, they just want some recognition that their industry has fallen apart and that their leaders are going to do something about it.
 
Mike, although I'm obviously sorry to hear your industry is in trouble, I'm not sure what you think the Scottish government is able to do about it. Oil is a reserved issue and thus totally the preserve of the UK Government. The oil industry itself hasn't exactly covered itself in glory when it comes to future proofing. It seems to me, and this is not a criticism of you, that the oil industry has been happy to plough ahead with profit-taking while reaching out for tax breaks, keeping a handful of extremely wealthy shareholders happy. Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond and those who came before warned time and again that oil is a finite resource and that we should take a leaf from the Norwegians' book in setting up an oil fund. As a result, we've got ntohing to show for that oil, while they're sitting on a massive stack of money, money belonging to the Norwegian people, who footed most of the bill in the first place. As to headlines, last time I checked, newspapers print them, not governments.
 
We've built a few hundred million up as an oil fund here, its not doing a great deal. There seems to be more interest in spending it on getting superfast BB installed everywhere, perhaps so we can all be sat at home developing shoot em ups and spending our earnings online.

Everyone is guilty of not looking to the future, its far more enjoyable spending your dividend than investing to protect an industry, but given that trade is global there's only so much we can do protect certain industrys - things would be very different if folks were happy to buy British, and pay for that option - we just want cheap. Capitalism depends on growth, so there's no incentive to spend a few quid more on a quality item - its a disposable world, and in this Country apparently so is our ability to make "stuff"

Getting back to the media point, a wise man once said that democracy transfers power from the wallet to the ballot.
 
We've built a few hundred million up as an oil fund here, its not doing a great deal. There seems to be more interest in spending it on getting superfast BB installed everywhere, perhaps so we can all be sat at home developing shoot em ups and spending our earnings online.

Everyone is guilty of not looking to the future, its far more enjoyable spending your dividend than investing to protect an industry, but given that trade is global there's only so much we can do protect certain industrys - things would be very different if folks were happy to buy British, and pay for that option - we just want cheap. Capitalism depends on growth, so there's no incentive to spend a few quid more on a quality item - its a disposable world, and in this Country apparently so is our ability to make "stuff"

Getting back to the media point, a wise man once said that democracy transfers power from the wallet to the ballot.

"We" - is that we the Scots or We the UK?
 

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