EDF Economy 9 Off Peak times-?

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

 

[Psych1965]

My neighbour below me had bought these radiators a few years ago, and when I text her to ask if her heaters were on the Economy 9 system (probably not the best way of wording my Q)-she replied with:

"The electric radiators are not connected to the economy nine. We just turned them on/off when we wanted". I'm assuming she means her radiators are on the 24/7 (more costly) Power supply?

 

[littlespark]

What you highlighted in bold and red seems to suggest that ALL your power is on cheap rate, whether its on the heating board, or general board. If thats the case, then it doesnt matter how the heaters are powered.... they will still be cheap rate overnight.

I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way.
Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point. (did the heaters come with plugs fitted?)


The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working, although there may be a backup battery inside to keep the programs remembered in case of a powercut.


I dont believe the timeclock/teleswitch is actually doing anything .... It may just be switching on an empty terminal now... The change in tariff is all built into the meter, or simply at the suppliers discrection. Just an instruction on a computer saying "Charge X pence/unit between this time and that time.... Charge Y pence at all other times"

Whether that corresponds with when your timeclock actually clicks over, is anyones guess


You could get your electrician to install a lamp on the teleswitched supply, so you can see exactly when it comes on..... and then off in the morning.... Just for a short term investigation..... Might be difficult if not in your actual flat

There may be some more complicated monitoring device, but a light and a clock is all you need.

 

[Psych1965]

What you highlighted in bold and red seems to suggest that ALL your power is on cheap rate, whether its on the heating board, or general board. If thats the case, then it doesnt matter how the heaters are powered.... they will still be cheap rate overnight.

I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way.
Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point. (did the heaters come with plugs fitted?)


The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working, although there may be a backup battery inside to keep the programs remembered in case of a powercut.


I dont believe the timeclock/teleswitch is actually doing anything .... It may just be switching on an empty terminal now... The change in tariff is all built into the meter, or simply at the suppliers discrection. Just an instruction on a computer saying "Charge X pence/unit between this time and that time.... Charge Y pence at all other times"

Whether that corresponds with when your timeclock actually clicks over, is anyones guess


You could get your electrician to install a lamp on the teleswitched supply, so you can see exactly when it comes on..... and then off in the morning.... Just for a short term investigation..... Might be difficult if not in your actual flat

There may be some more complicated monitoring device, but a light and a clock is all you need.

Thank you for this, Little Spark. But hold on. All my power is not on the cheap rate: my Power is only on the cheap rate from 11:30PM-6:30AM. Any appliances connected to my Power circuit outside those times is charged at the higher rate.

EDF wrote:

"One of these circuits (the Power Circuit) provides power 24 hours a day to your sockets lights etc. This circuit has cheaper rate electricity overnight from 23:30-06:30, all other hours are billed at the higher rate". So, it is my understanding that any Power used throughout the day (on the Power (24/7) circuit)-up until 11:30PM-is more costly.

I love your idea of installing a lamp, but the meter is in the communal cupboard and it's not that convenient for me to pop in there to monitor it.

I do need to ask the manufacturer re:

"The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working" and whether they will remember timer settings, if I keep them connected to the Off Peak supply. This will probably determine whether I keep the heaters on the Off Peak supply or move them all onto the Power Supply.

And thank you for:

"I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way. Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point". Just to say though: my storage heaters were connected in this same way-they turned on and off (I believe) because the socket was connected such that power to it was "lost" outside the Off Peak hours-are you saying that isn't good? I'm thinking that maybe they were hardwired to the point?

I do believe the heaters did come with plugs fitted but am not 100% certain.

I need to feed all of this back to my electrician, who will probably have an absolute nervous breakdown. Please wish me luck, and thank you so much for all of your input. I'll update you once I've spoken with him.

 

[littlespark]

Right...ok

All your lighting, power AND heating is on the two rates..... expensive during the day, cheaper at night.

If youre not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, then have your supplier put you on a one rate tariif..... which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate.

Although... for several thousand pounds, you could put in a domestic battery storage system that would charge up batterys on the cheap rate, and use that stored electricity during the day.....

 

[Psych1965]

Right...ok

All your lighting, power AND heating is on the two rates..... expensive during the day, cheaper at night.

If youre not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, then have your supplier put you on a one rate tariif..... which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate.

Although... for several thousand pounds, you could put in a domestic battery storage system that would charge up batterys on the cheap rate, and use that stored electricity during the day.....

Thanks for this. Well-not exactly! When the heating comes on during the Off Peak hours (during the day)-so between 1:30-3:30-it is charged at the cheaper rate. Same for 10PM-midnight. So, it's not as black and white as "expensive during the day, cheaper at night". But yes, any power used during the day is more costly. But the heating (if on Off Peak)-is cheaper at certain points during the day/evening.

I'd need to ask EDF is they can put us on a one rate tariff. We know that we are not eligible for a Smart Meter (don't ask-I think Economy 9 is incompatible with a Smart Meter) but we've never looked into a different tariff. I just realised (via the App for the heaters) that I am unable to schedule a time for them to come on, when they are not "on"-when the Off Peak supply is off. So it leaves me thinking that maybe it would be best to have them all on the Power (more expensive) circuit.

I need to speak to the manufacturer tomorrow and will then decide.

Thanks again and will update as and when.

 

[littlespark]

Of course they can put you on a one rate tariff.... YOU are the customer.... and you can always change supplier for best prices.

I was just giving a general "off peak overnight" to mean any cheap rate periods night or day


So this is what you want? to know exactly when the off peak kicks in, so you can set the heaters to the same time and make use of the cheaper rate.

Difficult, but not impossible. Even an approximate time with a few minutes in the expensive period.... although better to start the heating from cold in a cheaper rate... and maybe run over into expensive??

Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them.

 

[Psych1965]

Of course they can put you on a one rate tariff.... YOU are the customer.... and you can always change supplier for best prices.

I was just giving a general "off peak overnight" to mean any cheap rate periods night or day


So this is what you want? to know exactly when the off peak kicks in, so you can set the heaters to the same time and make use of the cheaper rate.

Difficult, but not impossible. Even an approximate time with a few minutes in the expensive period.... although better to start the heating from cold in a cheaper rate... and maybe run over into expensive??

Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them.

Thanks for this, Little Spark-I can tell what time the Off Peak kicks in because my water tank is on a timer (on the Off Peak supply) and the light turns red when it has power to it, and it turns green when the timer starts.

But after reading all of the replies (from you, Avo, Brian) I thought to myself that I'm better off having my heaters connected to the 24/7 Power supply, albeit more expensive, but at least I'd be able to use the radiators during the day, if need be.

Re-the one rate tariff: are you sure that they can do this? Would there be a financial benefit to doing so?

Based on what you said here: "Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them"-I agree in that this is why I'm leaning towards having my electrician put them all on the Power supply-but if I then ask EDF to put us on one tariff...is this going to affect the sockets that the heaters are connected/wired to? In other words, am I going to have to pay for another electrician's visit?

 

[brianmoooore]

If all the heaters and the water heater have their own individual timers, then it would be best for everything to be on a 24 hour supply. This can be achieved, with RCD related reservations, by removing the tails for the heating fuse box from wherever they are now and connecting them to the same place as the tails for the 24 hour box.
If you can reliably sync the time switches with the low rate times of your E9 supply, then it would be best to stay with that tariff.

 

[Psych1965]

If all the heaters and the water heater have their own individual timers, then it would be best for everything to be on a 24 hour supply. This can be achieved, with RCD related reservations, by removing the tails for the heating fuse box from wherever they are now and connecting them to the same place as the tails for the 24 hour box.
If you can reliably sync the time switches with the low rate times of your E9 supply, then it would be best to stay with that tariff.

Thanks, Brian, and I think I understand what you're suggesting, but it was my understanding that if they are on a 24 hour supply, that would automatically mean they are not on a low rate. At least, that was my understanding. In other words, it is the circuit that they are on-which determines whether the cost is low rate or high rate. The 24 hour supply (circuit) is the more expensive circuit.

 

[Psych1965]

Right...ok

All your lighting, power AND heating is on the two rates..... expensive during the day, cheaper at night.

If youre not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, then have your supplier put you on a one rate tariif..... which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate.

Although... for several thousand pounds, you could put in a domestic battery storage system that would charge up batterys on the cheap rate, and use that stored electricity during the day.....

Afternoon Little Spark-I hope you're well? So, my electrician is here, and as you all suspected, re-my fuseboard...he is moving the circuits from the off peak to general board because I want all my heaters on the 24/7 supply. However I am keeping my hot water thermal tank on the Economy 9 so that I benefit from the cheaper rate for my hot water.

Having said that, and whilst I loved your idea of asking EDF to move me onto one tariff (somewhere between my cheap rate and daytime rate)-I just asked my electrician if that would mean that my water would then also have to go onto the one tariff and he said yes. So, I'm not entirely sure if I want to do that-I'd really like to ask EDF for the "one tariff" rates, before I decide my plan forward. I'm on hold with them at the mo. Will update as and when. I hope you have a good rest of your Monday.

 

[littlespark]

It is a very fine line to whether one rate would be better or worse then keeping the E9 financially.

As long as you keep thinking along the lines of, use high powered appliances as much as possible on the cheaper rate, then it should be better.

This all still leaves you with the issue of when, exactly, the rate changes… and timing the heaters to coincide.

 

[brianmoooore]

it was my understanding that if they are on a 24 hour supply, that would automatically mean they are not on a low rate. At least, that was my understanding. In other words, it is the circuit that they are on-which determines whether the cost is low rate or high rate. The 24 hour supply (circuit) is the more expensive circuit.

Don't have E9 in my area, but do have E7, which is probably similar, but with two hours less.
With E7, all electricity that you consume during the 17 hour period is at the more expensive rate and all electricity used in the 7 hour period is at the cheaper rate. The only difference with the switched supply is that it is only energised in the 7 hour period, so saves having to use individual time switches.

 

[Psych1965]

It is a very fine line to whether one rate would be better or worse then keeping the E9 financially.

As long as you keep thinking along the lines of, use high powered appliances as much as possible on the cheaper rate, then it should be better.

This all still leaves you with the issue of when, exactly, the rate changes… and timing the heaters to coincide.

Thanks, Little Spark-I hear you, and agree in theory, but from what I understand-the only "appliance" I have now connected to my "cheap rate" is my water thermal tank-everything else (all other sockets) are considered "Power" supply and are the more expensive rate. I have emailed EDF asking if I can change tariff. The issue is this: and re-the RTS-we were advised ages ago that we are not eligible for a Smart Meter-because we're on Econ. 9. But I noticed that all of my neighbours on my floor (5 other flats) all have Hortsmann meters and are all with London Energy (?) whereas we are the only flat with an EDF meter that says RTS. I even when onto the Uswitch website and put my post code in and I got the message:

"Sorry, we've detected multiple meters at your address and cannot help you switch. We’re currently working on a solution for this and hope to have this working soon".

I feel trapped.

What I have done last night, was put my heater in the bedroom on the timer such that it came on at 11:30AM and turned off before 6:30AM (between 11:30PM-6:30AM) is the cheap rate tariff.

But re-other appliances-I don't think any of them can be used on Economy 9-it was only my heaters and hot water tank that were connected. (The water tank still is). I hope this makes sense? I'm starting to question whether I am right?

 

[Avo Mk8]

The following post on a forum nearly 10 years ago sort of mirrors your position:

London apartment with "Economy 9" electric (yes 9)

My apartment has an EDF Economy 9 tariff. Apparently this type of tariff is quite rare and seemingly unique to EDF.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com

A point that has not really been covered in the previous posts here is that your electricity meter effectively incorporates two meters, producing two supplies (it has two MPAN's, Meter Point Administration Numbers, so when a supplier looks you up on the database, they see you have two meters) and is particular to EDF.

The person posting the above was worried they were paying too much to EDF, but I don't think that was actually the case.

I think if you made it clear to your supplier (or to a competitor) that you wanted to change to a single supply, single tariff meter, you should be able to do that, but that might involve your electrician again.

But a word of caution about ditching E9.
You need to do some sums before deciding to move to a standard rate 24hr supply.
I'm pretty certain you wouldn't be able to move back to E9 once you abandoned it.

I installed smart radiators, and because they mostly don't come on at night, I moved from E7 to a standard tariff.
Even with electricity prices beginning to stabilise a bit (!), and despite the radiator's economy features, heating cost in the winter can be high, eg up to £30 a day!
I think in retrospect, if I was in your position, and if your smart radiators come on and work as programmed when run on the E9 heating circuit (ie just being turned on and off by the meter) then I would live with that arrangement. It is bound to be cheaper if you can make use of the two off-peak periods during the day.

 

[brianmoooore]

I've moved two of my supplies from E7 to a standard 24 hr tariff. All that happened is that both rates are still read, but billed at the same price, the price it would be if it was a single rate meter.