EDF Economy 9 Off Peak times-?

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

 

[brianmoooore]

the only appliances/electrical devices that are plugged into the Heater (Off Peak) supply are my heaters.

Do you men plugged with a 13A plug and a 13A socket, or hardwired, where the heater cable is permanently connected to something that looks like a switch.
It is potentially very dangerous to have 13A sockets that can become live by remote switching.

 

[Psych1965]

Do you men plugged with a 13A plug and a 13A socket, or hardwired, where the heater cable is permanently connected to something that looks like a switch.
It is potentially very dangerous to have 13A sockets that can become live by remote switching.

I have no idea what you mean. Let me attach a photo (ignore the back of the radiator-it needs painting over): so, the socket that you can see here is the socket that my former storage heater was always plugged into. And now my new radiator is plugged into it. It is an Off Peak supply. It is clear that this socket is on the heating circuit because outside of the "live" hours, the display is off. I even tried to plug my hair dryer into it and nothing happened when I turned it on. So we know for certain that this socket is an Off Peak (Heating) circuit. I have no idea whether it is hardwired....I'd need to ask my electrician.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

Littlespark-here is a photo of the meter-it gives me two readings-it continuously changes from Power to Heating.

 

[Psych1965]

I don't know the behaviour of your heaters, but I am concerned that if power is removed (eg E9 going off) then on restoration of power (E9 coming back on) the heater will not automatically come back on. Being electronically controlled, I would expect it to require a button push or equivalent. But maybe it will be OK. If it was under wifi/ app control, and you've asked it to be 'on', that command may be refreshed when power is back, so it may then switch on, and it would be OK.
This could be checked by talking to the manufacturers or supplier.
I had a brief look, but the subtleties of this situation don't seem to be covered in the user instructions.

The timing clock in the heater probably has battery backup, so it should keep correct time and the programmer will hopefully remember what it's supposed to be doing after power is removed.

Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression that EDF supply a dual MPAN meter for E9, so there may be different rates?

Sorry-I only just saw your last Q re: "Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression that EDF supply a dual MPAN meter for E9, so there may be different rates"?

According to what EDF have said:

All power used on the Heating Circuit is charged at the Lower rate.

One of these circuits (the Power Circuit) provides power 24 hours a day to your sockets lights etc. This circuit has cheaper rate electricity overnight from 23:30-06:30, all other hours are billed at the higher rate.

Power is only supplied to the heating circuit during the stated hours, and that all power used on the Heating circuit is charged at the lower rate.

With the Economy 9 meter the energy charged at the lower rate is everything used on your Heating circuit plus everything used overnight (23:30PM to 06:30AM) on your power circuit.

I don't know if the cost of the electricity (TV on standby etc) on the power sockets (overnight) is the same cost as my heating & water tank at Off Peak times.

All I know is that my usage for the Heating circuit is always higher/more than for my Power circuit.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

Littlespark: re-"check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak: it is my understanding that only my heating/radiators and water tank are connected to the Heating/Off Peak supply-everything else is on the daytime (peak) supply.

EDF wrote: "With the Economy 9 meter the energy charged at the lower rate is everything used on your Heating circuit plus everything used overnight (23:30PM to 06:30AM) on your power circuit".

But I believe only my radiators and water tank are on the Off Peak supply.

 

[Psych1965]

My neighbour below me had bought these radiators a few years ago, and when I text her to ask if her heaters were on the Economy 9 system (probably not the best way of wording my Q)-she replied with:

"The electric radiators are not connected to the economy nine. We just turned them on/off when we wanted". I'm assuming she means her radiators are on the 24/7 (more costly) Power supply?

 

[littlespark]

What you highlighted in bold and red seems to suggest that ALL your power is on cheap rate, whether its on the heating board, or general board. If thats the case, then it doesnt matter how the heaters are powered.... they will still be cheap rate overnight.

I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way.
Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point. (did the heaters come with plugs fitted?)


The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working, although there may be a backup battery inside to keep the programs remembered in case of a powercut.


I dont believe the timeclock/teleswitch is actually doing anything .... It may just be switching on an empty terminal now... The change in tariff is all built into the meter, or simply at the suppliers discrection. Just an instruction on a computer saying "Charge X pence/unit between this time and that time.... Charge Y pence at all other times"

Whether that corresponds with when your timeclock actually clicks over, is anyones guess


You could get your electrician to install a lamp on the teleswitched supply, so you can see exactly when it comes on..... and then off in the morning.... Just for a short term investigation..... Might be difficult if not in your actual flat

There may be some more complicated monitoring device, but a light and a clock is all you need.

 

[Psych1965]

What you highlighted in bold and red seems to suggest that ALL your power is on cheap rate, whether its on the heating board, or general board. If thats the case, then it doesnt matter how the heaters are powered.... they will still be cheap rate overnight.

I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way.
Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point. (did the heaters come with plugs fitted?)


The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working, although there may be a backup battery inside to keep the programs remembered in case of a powercut.


I dont believe the timeclock/teleswitch is actually doing anything .... It may just be switching on an empty terminal now... The change in tariff is all built into the meter, or simply at the suppliers discrection. Just an instruction on a computer saying "Charge X pence/unit between this time and that time.... Charge Y pence at all other times"

Whether that corresponds with when your timeclock actually clicks over, is anyones guess


You could get your electrician to install a lamp on the teleswitched supply, so you can see exactly when it comes on..... and then off in the morning.... Just for a short term investigation..... Might be difficult if not in your actual flat

There may be some more complicated monitoring device, but a light and a clock is all you need.

Thank you for this, Little Spark. But hold on. All my power is not on the cheap rate: my Power is only on the cheap rate from 11:30PM-6:30AM. Any appliances connected to my Power circuit outside those times is charged at the higher rate.

EDF wrote:

"One of these circuits (the Power Circuit) provides power 24 hours a day to your sockets lights etc. This circuit has cheaper rate electricity overnight from 23:30-06:30, all other hours are billed at the higher rate". So, it is my understanding that any Power used throughout the day (on the Power (24/7) circuit)-up until 11:30PM-is more costly.

I love your idea of installing a lamp, but the meter is in the communal cupboard and it's not that convenient for me to pop in there to monitor it.

I do need to ask the manufacturer re:

"The heaters do need a 24hr supply to keep the electronic timers working" and whether they will remember timer settings, if I keep them connected to the Off Peak supply. This will probably determine whether I keep the heaters on the Off Peak supply or move them all onto the Power Supply.

And thank you for:

"I do agree with one of my collegues that sockets being turned on and off automatically to supply the heaters are not the best way. Replace that single socket with a switched fuse plate, and hardwire the heater to the point". Just to say though: my storage heaters were connected in this same way-they turned on and off (I believe) because the socket was connected such that power to it was "lost" outside the Off Peak hours-are you saying that isn't good? I'm thinking that maybe they were hardwired to the point?

I do believe the heaters did come with plugs fitted but am not 100% certain.

I need to feed all of this back to my electrician, who will probably have an absolute nervous breakdown. Please wish me luck, and thank you so much for all of your input. I'll update you once I've spoken with him.

 

[littlespark]

Right...ok

All your lighting, power AND heating is on the two rates..... expensive during the day, cheaper at night.

If youre not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, then have your supplier put you on a one rate tariif..... which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate.

Although... for several thousand pounds, you could put in a domestic battery storage system that would charge up batterys on the cheap rate, and use that stored electricity during the day.....

 

[Psych1965]

Right...ok

All your lighting, power AND heating is on the two rates..... expensive during the day, cheaper at night.

If youre not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, then have your supplier put you on a one rate tariif..... which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate.

Although... for several thousand pounds, you could put in a domestic battery storage system that would charge up batterys on the cheap rate, and use that stored electricity during the day.....

Thanks for this. Well-not exactly! When the heating comes on during the Off Peak hours (during the day)-so between 1:30-3:30-it is charged at the cheaper rate. Same for 10PM-midnight. So, it's not as black and white as "expensive during the day, cheaper at night". But yes, any power used during the day is more costly. But the heating (if on Off Peak)-is cheaper at certain points during the day/evening.

I'd need to ask EDF is they can put us on a one rate tariff. We know that we are not eligible for a Smart Meter (don't ask-I think Economy 9 is incompatible with a Smart Meter) but we've never looked into a different tariff. I just realised (via the App for the heaters) that I am unable to schedule a time for them to come on, when they are not "on"-when the Off Peak supply is off. So it leaves me thinking that maybe it would be best to have them all on the Power (more expensive) circuit.

I need to speak to the manufacturer tomorrow and will then decide.

Thanks again and will update as and when.

 

[littlespark]

Of course they can put you on a one rate tariff.... YOU are the customer.... and you can always change supplier for best prices.

I was just giving a general "off peak overnight" to mean any cheap rate periods night or day


So this is what you want? to know exactly when the off peak kicks in, so you can set the heaters to the same time and make use of the cheaper rate.

Difficult, but not impossible. Even an approximate time with a few minutes in the expensive period.... although better to start the heating from cold in a cheaper rate... and maybe run over into expensive??

Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them.

 

[Psych1965]

Of course they can put you on a one rate tariff.... YOU are the customer.... and you can always change supplier for best prices.

I was just giving a general "off peak overnight" to mean any cheap rate periods night or day


So this is what you want? to know exactly when the off peak kicks in, so you can set the heaters to the same time and make use of the cheaper rate.

Difficult, but not impossible. Even an approximate time with a few minutes in the expensive period.... although better to start the heating from cold in a cheaper rate... and maybe run over into expensive??

Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them.

Thanks for this, Little Spark-I can tell what time the Off Peak kicks in because my water tank is on a timer (on the Off Peak supply) and the light turns red when it has power to it, and it turns green when the timer starts.

But after reading all of the replies (from you, Avo, Brian) I thought to myself that I'm better off having my heaters connected to the 24/7 Power supply, albeit more expensive, but at least I'd be able to use the radiators during the day, if need be.

Re-the one rate tariff: are you sure that they can do this? Would there be a financial benefit to doing so?

Based on what you said here: "Be simpler just to get a one-rate and use the heaters as and when you need them"-I agree in that this is why I'm leaning towards having my electrician put them all on the Power supply-but if I then ask EDF to put us on one tariff...is this going to affect the sockets that the heaters are connected/wired to? In other words, am I going to have to pay for another electrician's visit?

 

[brianmoooore]

If all the heaters and the water heater have their own individual timers, then it would be best for everything to be on a 24 hour supply. This can be achieved, with RCD related reservations, by removing the tails for the heating fuse box from wherever they are now and connecting them to the same place as the tails for the 24 hour box.
If you can reliably sync the time switches with the low rate times of your E9 supply, then it would be best to stay with that tariff.

 

[Psych1965]

If all the heaters and the water heater have their own individual timers, then it would be best for everything to be on a 24 hour supply. This can be achieved, with RCD related reservations, by removing the tails for the heating fuse box from wherever they are now and connecting them to the same place as the tails for the 24 hour box.
If you can reliably sync the time switches with the low rate times of your E9 supply, then it would be best to stay with that tariff.

Thanks, Brian, and I think I understand what you're suggesting, but it was my understanding that if they are on a 24 hour supply, that would automatically mean they are not on a low rate. At least, that was my understanding. In other words, it is the circuit that they are on-which determines whether the cost is low rate or high rate. The 24 hour supply (circuit) is the more expensive circuit.