EDF Economy 9 Off Peak times-?

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

 

[Psych1965]

Don't have E9 in my area, but do have E7, which is probably similar, but with two hours less.
With E7, all electricity that you consume during the 17 hour period is at the more expensive rate and all electricity used in the 7 hour period is at the cheaper rate. The only difference with the switched supply is that it is only energised in the 7 hour period, so saves having to use individual time switches.

Thanks, Brian-I am not sure if I understand. I was told by EDF that all power used between 11:30PM-6:30AM is on the cheap rate but anything used daytime (6:30AM-11:30PM) on the Power supply is on the higher rate. I'm trying to find out by EDF if I can move to one rate/tariff so that all my energy (and hot water) is charged at a rate somewhere between the two.

 

[Psych1965]

The following post on a forum nearly 10 years ago sort of mirrors your position:

London apartment with "Economy 9" electric (yes 9)

My apartment has an EDF Economy 9 tariff. Apparently this type of tariff is quite rare and seemingly unique to EDF.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com

A point that has not really been covered in the previous posts here is that your electricity meter effectively incorporates two meters, producing two supplies (it has two MPAN's, Meter Point Administration Numbers, so when a supplier looks you up on the database, they see you have two meters) and is particular to EDF.

The person posting the above was worried they were paying too much to EDF, but I don't think that was actually the case.

I think if you made it clear to your supplier (or to a competitor) that you wanted to change to a single supply, single tariff meter, you should be able to do that, but that might involve your electrician again.

But a word of caution about ditching E9.
You need to do some sums before deciding to move to a standard rate 24hr supply.
I'm pretty certain you wouldn't be able to move back to E9 once you abandoned it.

I installed smart radiators, and because they mostly don't come on at night, I moved from E7 to a standard tariff.
Even with electricity prices beginning to stabilise a bit (!), and despite the radiator's economy features, heating cost in the winter can be high, eg up to £30 a day!
I think in retrospect, if I was in your position, and if your smart radiators come on and work as programmed when run on the E9 heating circuit (ie just being turned on and off by the meter) then I would live with that arrangement. It is bound to be cheaper if you can make use of the two off-peak periods during the day.

Thanks Avo-I hear you but it's too late. My electrician (at my request) put all of my heaters on the Power circuit-for the simple reason that I want to be to able to turn them on during the day if I'm cold. Had I kept them on E9 I wouldn't have been able to put them on except for the hours stated by EDF. Truthfully, I don't keep the heaters on a lot daytime-maybe just to warm a room up for 30 mins. if I'm cold. I do want to find out from EDF (if they ever get back to me) what the rates are for a single supply/single tariff meter before I decide to ditch E9. So, to be clear-although my electrician moved my heaters onto the Peak (Power) circuit-my hot water tank is still on E9...it comes on at certain (timed) times of the day. So, for example-EDF specified 1:30-3:30PM as a cheap rate-I have timed my water tank to come on for an hour, during that time-making use of the cheaper rate, but I don't need it on for the two hours, as it heats up again at 10PM (till midnight), etc. I really need to speak to someone at EDF but my concern is-can I change tariff? According to Uswitch-because I have two meters-as you rightly said above, they said:

"Sorry, we've detected multiple meters at your address and cannot help you switch. We’re currently working on a solution for this and hope to have this working soon".

The expression "bloody nightmare" comes to mind. I'm not too concerned about getting the electrician back, but I do want to better understand my options first.

 

[Psych1965]

It is a very fine line to whether one rate would be better or worse then keeping the E9 financially.

As long as you keep thinking along the lines of, use high powered appliances as much as possible on the cheaper rate, then it should be better.

This all still leaves you with the issue of when, exactly, the rate changes… and timing the heaters to coincide.

What I really want to understand better is this: whether it would prove more cost effective to put me on a Standard Rate supply or a one rate tariff (are these two separate thing)?, given I am not making use of the Off Peak supply for my heating (though I continue to do so for my hot water). In other words, would a tariff somewhere between my cheap rate and costly rate be better for both my water and heating? I imagine this is a Q. only EDF or another provider can clarify for me. The terminology that EDF use slightly differs to what we are discussing-they have a Standard Variable rate, but not a "Standard" rate.

 

[Psych1965]

What I really want to understand better is this: whether it would prove more cost effective to put me on a Standard Rate supply or a one rate tariff (are these two separate thing)?, given I am not making use of the Off Peak supply for my heating (though I continue to do so for my hot water). In other words, would a tariff somewhere between my cheap rate and costly rate be better for both my water and heating? I imagine this is a Q. only EDF or another provider can clarify for me. The terminology that EDF use slightly differs to what we are discussing-they have a Standard Variable rate, but not a "Standard" rate.

It is a very fine line to whether one rate would be better or worse then keeping the E9 financially.

As long as you keep thinking along the lines of, use high powered appliances as much as possible on the cheaper rate, then it should be better.

This all still leaves you with the issue of when, exactly, the rate changes… and timing the heaters to coincide.

Hello. I hope you are well? By way of an update: I have spoken with 3 different energy suppliers over the past few days and have decided, in the end to stay with EDF but to move over to a smart meter which means that I need to abandon Economy 9. That's actually fine with me because I've seen their other tariffs and I've decided which tariff I wanna go with. I have an appointment to have the new Smart Meter installed in just over a week and need to know one thing before I feel 100% confident about this change. I've posed the Q. to EDF who couldn't answer so they will ask a different team who will hopefully be able to clarify.

Here's the question: at the moment, the only appliance on my Economy 9 tariff is my water cylinder. It has two immersions, and from what the electrician who installed my two timers for it, said: the bottom one needs to do all the work (and I can't recall the reason for it but something along the lines that the water takes time to warm and by using that immersion it will warm faster).

In any case, there are two switches on my wall that the water cylinder is connected to: one is the off peak "circuit" and the other is the peak circuit. I want to know what happens when EDF put me on the one rate/day tariff? At the moment I am only using the Off Peak (cheap) tariff for my water-I don't keep the Peak on. It is my understanding that my water cylinder is therefore on two circuits-I want to make sure that when I am moved from the Economy 9 tariff, that the way my water cylinder has been "hooked up" so to speak doesn't mean that I will be charged "Peak" rates instead of a fixed tariff.

One of you had advised that if I'm not going to (or cannot) take advantage of the cheaper overnight rate, to have EDF put me on a one rate tariff..... "which will be a pence per unit somewhere between your cheap overnight rate and your daytime rate". I found this tariff (it's the Fixed tariff) but how will the wiring/circuitry for my water cylinder know that I'm on a one rate tariff? I don't know if my Q. is clear (in my head I know what I'm asking). I asked the electrician who installed the timers for my water cylinder this same Q. and he said that the meter replacement should not affect how many circuits I have in my flat/that are connected to my water cylinder, but I think I disagree. Isn't the purpose of moving from Economy 9 to a one rate tariff so that I am on one circuit? Or am I confusing a circuit with tariff?

All I know is that my water cylinder is currently on Economy 9, and it has two circuits/cables going into it-one for the peak supply and one for the off peak. Will EDF turn off the "Heating" circuit (which was my cheap rate/off peak) circuit and just leave the Peak rate? That can't be since the cost of the peak tariff is higher than the fixed tariff that I will be moving to.

I suppose I'm wondering whether I will need to get my electrician back to do something (?) to my fuse board or to adjust the cabling/wiring for the water cylinder such that my water cylinder is not on a high/peak tariff? I am so confused about how all this works.

It sounds to me that the EDF person who will come out to replace my meter will only be replacing the meter and will not be interested in what is going on inside my property.

Can anyone advise what the implications are when you move from Economy 9 (or 7) to a Smart meter, re-my existing appliances that are on Econ 9, i.e., my water cylinder? My heaters are not a concern because they are all now on the Power (24 hour) supply (circuit).

Thanks for any light you can shed......

 

[brianmoooore]

The 'peak' switch for the cylinder was only intended to be used if you ran out of hot water during the day, enabling you to heat water in the top part of the cylinder only, albeit at a more expensive rate than that heated on 'off peak'.
If the fuse box for the off peak circuits is left disconnected after the meter change, then the 'off peak' switch and immersion heater will no longer work, and you will only be able to heat part of the tank. This may or may not be enough hot water for your needs, but if all your electricity is supplied at the same rate, there's no financial disadvantage in using the 'peak' switch and immersion only.
If you use more hot water in one go than the part cylinder holds, such as a deep bath or very long shower, the 'peak' heater may not be able to keep up, and you will need to get power restored to the old 'off peak' fuse box. This would now be permanent, 24 hour power, rather than the E9 intermittent power.

 

[Psych1965]

The 'peak' switch for the cylinder was only intended to be used if you ran out of hot water during the day, enabling you to heat water in the top part of the cylinder only, albeit at a more expensive rate than that heated on 'off peak'.
If the fuse box for the off peak circuits is left disconnected after the meter change, then the 'off peak' switch and immersion heater will no longer work, and you will only be able to heat part of the tank. This may or may not be enough hot water for your needs, but if all your electricity is supplied at the same rate, there's no financial disadvantage in using the 'peak' switch and immersion only.
If you use more hot water in one go than the part cylinder holds, such as a deep bath or very long shower, the 'peak' heater may not be able to keep up, and you will need to get power restored to the old 'off peak' fuse box. This would now be permanent, 24 hour power, rather than the E9 intermittent power.

Hi Brian-thanks very much for this. I don't think the fuse box for the off peak circuits will be left disconnected (the only way this could happen is if I ask my electrician to do this-which I haven't done)-so am I right in thinking that as long as the off peak circuit is left intact and on at the fuse box-then I should be able to heat both top and bottom parts of my water cylinder?

And are you saying that once I move away from Econ 9 and onto a flat fixed rate-that the peak circuit/heater will not work? It was my understanding that it's the "peak" switch that is the 24/7 one and that it's the off peak one that is on the "heating" circuit, which is my cheap rate circuit, which will possibly cease to work once they move me over? It's this latter topic that I am confused about-which circuit/supply will stop working when I am taken off Econ 9 and put on a fixed tariff?

To be clear-my water is currently only heated via the off peak-I never turn my peak switch on, i.e., the lower immersion, as in the photo-does all the work. The top immersion is connected to my "peak" supply.

I simply don't understand which immersion will be working/doing the work once I am off Economy 9? Or will it not matter?

 

[Psych1965]

Hi Brian-thanks very much for this. I don't think the fuse box for the off peak circuits will be left disconnected (the only way this could happen is if I ask my electrician to do this-which I haven't done)-so am I right in thinking that as long as the off peak circuit is left intact and on at the fuse box-then I should be able to heat both top and bottom parts of my water cylinder?

And are you saying that once I move away from Econ 9 and onto a flat fixed rate-that the peak circuit/heater will not work? It was my understanding that it's the "peak" switch that is the 24/7 one and that it's the off peak one that is on the "heating" circuit, which is my cheap rate circuit, which will possibly cease to work once they move me over? It's this latter topic that I am confused about-which circuit/supply will stop working when I am taken off Econ 9 and put on a fixed tariff?

To be clear-my water is currently only heated via the off peak-I never turn my peak switch on, i.e., the lower immersion, as in the photo-does all the work. The top immersion is connected to my "peak" supply.

I simply don't understand which immersion will be working/doing the work once I am off Economy 9? Or will it not matter?

Sorry-I think I read one of your sentences wrong. So if, as you say "if all your electricity is supplied at the same rate, there's no financial disadvantage in using the 'peak' switch and immersion only", does that suggest that both immersions can continue to work as they have been doing, i.e., will my Off Peak immersion (the lower one) still do most of the work (since I don't have the top one "on") when I move over to a fixed rate tariff? My Q. pertains more to the "functioning" of the two immersions once I move over as opposed to the tariffs. Having said that-is it possible that EDF will switch off my Off Peak circuit altogether such that the lower immersion on the water tank will not work any longer? Financial implications aside, I do want to be able to use both immersions, for example, as you say, a bath, etc. To date, I've been able to run a bath from only the lower immersion but I do want to have the option to use both immersions once I move over to a flat daily rate.

 

[Psych1965]

The 'peak' switch for the cylinder was only intended to be used if you ran out of hot water during the day, enabling you to heat water in the top part of the cylinder only, albeit at a more expensive rate than that heated on 'off peak'.
If the fuse box for the off peak circuits is left disconnected after the meter change, then the 'off peak' switch and immersion heater will no longer work, and you will only be able to heat part of the tank. This may or may not be enough hot water for your needs, but if all your electricity is supplied at the same rate, there's no financial disadvantage in using the 'peak' switch and immersion only.
If you use more hot water in one go than the part cylinder holds, such as a deep bath or very long shower, the 'peak' heater may not be able to keep up, and you will need to get power restored to the old 'off peak' fuse box. This would now be permanent, 24 hour power, rather than the E9 intermittent power.

Part III. I think I have clarity-having spoken to my electrician who installed my heaters, he said that the part of my fuseboard that is currently Econ 9 will be swapped over to 24/7 (new rate-one rate/day rate) when EDF come to replace my meter, so that should mean that the lower immersion on the water cylinder will still be "on" (it's on a timer) and will be heating up my water. The top immersion-which is currently "off" at the switch-is already on 24/7 supply-I never use it because it only heats the top half whereas the lower immersion heats the entire cylinder. The top immersion is really only needed for a boost-if I need more hot water than what the lower immersion provides. For some reason I thought that I would need somebody to fiddle with the fuse board, but my electrician said no-once EDF switch me over, my lower immersion should be on the 24/7 supply. Does this make sense to you?