Electrician Jobs EIC issue................................

[ADB57]

I think that you will find that Sparkys can and will certify other peoples works, and it is considered to be compliant.
I have taken the choice to e able to do these, but they are quite more involved, and not necessarily cheap.
The paper work is a lot longer.

I will give you an example of why this needs to be available.

You employ an electrician to rewire your house, and he basically completes it, without any certs.....But he goes bankrupt and cannot complete the job !

So what does the customer do?
If you ask the LABC (in my experience) they will accept an EICR from another qualified Sparky.........or from me an EIC third party....( similar tests etc)

You dont have many options to be fair ! LABC dont have qualified Sparkys on their books normally, but sub it out to the likes of us !

 

[alasdairp]

I wired my Scottish cottage and new self-built extension without realising the changes in rules since I was up-to-date qualified back in the 1990s. I did eventually manage to find a senior electrician / electrical contractor (plus apprentice) who did sign it off, but he had to open EVERY socket, switch and light-rose and check the wiring, as well as completing all the required tests. He commented how good it all was, but said that he had had to check everything (including my design) as he was effectively certifying the whole installation. I had used FP200 Gold screened wire which meant he was not too worried about any cable damage that might had occurred but was out of sight as it has a complete conductive sheath inside the outer insulation. I can understand why the LPA may "charge up to £700". It is a lot of work to check another person's electrical rewire properly as required.

Now I tell everyone to just get an up-to-date- qualified electrician in who can do the whole job and sign it off. It will be cheaper in the end.

 

[Marti]

Whilst I sympathise with you, accreditation is not easy to get and costs a spark a lot of time, money and effort why would he risk his to enable a non qualified person to carry out work they are not qualified to do.

Just about sums up our constant battle with the "you are too expensive" cheap builder brigade! Thank you

 

[Norah Nabino]

Hello. Am a competent electrician - been taught by qualified electricians, but have no qualifications myself. I will be doing a complete rewire for a friend in Dunstable/Luton area and was wondering if it was more worthwhile to get a NICEIC/equivalent rated electrician in to produce an EIC or to get in LABC. I have an mft and can do all the tests etc but obviously would prefer a NIC guy to sign it off. Would someone do this for me?? and what sort of price.

How can someone be competent with no qualifications? ??

 

[telectrix]

How can someone be competent with no qualifications? ??

a guy may have had years of experience working with electricians but no paper quals. he may still be competent. on the other hand, i know several who have all the necessary paper quals., but i'd not trust them to wire a plug.

 

[ipf]

I think that you will find that Sparkys can and will certify other peoples works, and it is considered to be compliant.
I have taken the choice to e able to do these, but they are quite more involved, and not necessarily cheap.
The paper work is a lot longer.

I will give you an example of why this needs to be available.

You employ an electrician to rewire your house, and he basically completes it, without any certs.....But he goes bankrupt and cannot complete the job !

So what does the customer do?
If you ask the LABC (in my experience) they will accept an EICR from another qualified Sparky.........or from me an EIC third party....( similar tests etc)

You dont have many options to be fair ! LABC dont have qualified Sparkys on their books normally, but sub it out to the likes of us !

True……..but, you say, what does the customer do? Have you ever done this in a situation when someone 'unqualified' has, knowingly, done the job on his own property?
eg. Show us evidence of previous contractor.

 

[alasdairp]

a guy may have had years of experience working with electricians but no paper quals. he may still be competent. on the other hand, i know several who have all the necessary paper quals., but i'd not trust them to wire a plug.

I agree completely! The current "qualification" system is not fit for purpose. It should be essential to have a modern apprenticeship as well as college training as part of the overall approvals package. In my opinion, you need at least a couple of years "on the job" experience overseen by a qualified and well experienced electrician before you should be allowed "out on your own". I know 'technical college' lecturers who have told me "if they fail first time, we go through the questions so they pass on their second attempt". That is because of college "success ratings" being seen as the most important factor. You have better assessment at the "professional engineer" level (e.g. Chartered Engineer, C.Eng that can follow after several years "on the job" after obtaining an engineering degree) and at some of the modern engineering technician level qualifications where you need ongoing supervision and assessment reporting before you can fully qualify.

 

[ipf]

I agree completely! The current "qualification" system is not fit for purpose. It should be essential to have a modern apprenticeship as well as college training as part of the overall approvals package. In my opinion, you need at least a couple of years "on the job" experience overseen by a qualified and well experienced electrician before you should be allowed "out on your own". I know 'technical college' lecturers who have told me "if they fail first time, we go through the questions so they pass on their second attempt". That is because of college "success ratings" being seen as the most important factor. You have better assessment at the "professional engineer" level (e.g. Chartered Engineer, C.Eng that can follow after several years "on the job" after obtaining an engineering degree) and at some of the modern engineering technician level qualifications where you need ongoing supervision and assessment reporting before you can fully qualify.

That's life, these days. We've all got to put up with such crap. Said it many times.....trade is falling apart....could say it's imploding, bringing itself down.

 

[Marti]

Before anyone get riled at my comments, remember I'm incredibly grateful to this form and worked hard to be worthy of the help you guys freely offer.

Valid points in all of the previous posts BUT in framing what the situation should be we are in danger of never having any workable solution. Imagine the guy or gal who spends a couple of years on site learning from all the trades and getting a sold back ground in tool handling then magics up £6 - 12 grand in college fees plus lost wages. a year or two later, s/he then hits the market to be used as a van-loader / tea maker / goffer before being seen to have served his time and take his rightful place in the right hand van-seat.

..And, don't look to employers and shout "apprenticeship"! They simply will not stump up the front money from training regardless of age, sex or experience. They will either use the enthusiastic newby as cheap labour or pull in cheap, fully trained skills from overseas - regardless of the "B" word. Don't believe me - look at nursing in the NHS.

At risk of being stoned with a hail of failed 18v batteries. Less of the "better in the past" thoughts and more acknowledgement of the real world plus sacking the various organisations that do nothing and dip the hard worked pockets of all tradesman, would do wonders for the industry and job I worked hard to join and am still incredibly proud to be part of.

I can see a "Life of Brian" stoning video would fit in nicely right here

 

[alasdairp]

Before anyone get riled at my comments, remember I'm incredibly grateful to this form and worked hard to be worthy of the help you guys freely offer.

Valid points in all of the previous posts BUT in framing what the situation should be we are in danger of never having any workable solution. Imagine the guy or gal who spends a couple of years on site learning from all the trades and getting a sold back ground in tool handling then magics up £6 - 12 grand in college fees plus lost wages. a year or two later, s/he then hits the market to be used as a van-loader / tea maker / goffer before being seen to have served his time and take his rightful place in the right hand van-seat.

..And, don't look to employers and shout "apprenticeship"! They simply will not stump up the front money from training regardless of age, sex or experience. They will either use the enthusiastic newby as cheap labour or pull in cheap, fully trained skills from overseas - regardless of the "B" word. Don't believe me - look at nursing in the NHS.

At risk of being stoned with a hail of failed 18v batteries. Less of the "better in the past" thoughts and more acknowledgement of the real world plus sacking the various organisations that do nothing and dip the hard worked pockets of all tradesman, would do wonders for the industry and job I worked hard to join and am still incredibly proud to be part of.

I can see a "Life of Brian" stoning video would fit in nicely right here

What you say is sometimes true. However, we should not dismiss modern apprenticeships. The EITB support a range of schemes.
Home Page - ECITB - https://www.ecitb.org.uk/
The apprentice should not have to pay anything or very little, and probably buy their own tools. In regard to training, we seem to have lost pride in a good job done well and the electrical installation and repair market is very broken up by competing professional groups and poor-quality short-course training companies. The Wiring Regs are getting over-regulated and the training under-organised under-regulated and under-funded.

Yes, I am a grumpy old git at times, too!

 

[Marti]

In regard to training, we seem to have lost pride in a good job done well and the electrical installation and repair market is very broken up by competing professional groups and poor-quality short-course training companies. The Wiring Regs are getting over-regulated and the training under-organised under-regulated and under-funded.

Put more eloquently than I did
Was there ever a time when unqualified chancers would not / could not undercut the skilled individual? By virtue of being in this forum, I'm willing to bet that the majority in here DO take pride their work.

 

[alasdairp]

Put more eloquently than I did
Was there ever a time when unqualified chancers would not / could not undercut the skilled individual? By virtue of being in this forum, I'm willing to bet that the majority in here DO take pride their work.

Absolutely! A great bunch of skilled characters here - and who can be bothered to enter into helpful debate, too!

 

[ipf]

Put more eloquently than I did
Was there ever a time when unqualified chancers would not / could not undercut the skilled individual? By virtue of being in this forum, I'm willing to bet that the majority in here DO take pride their work.

There certainly was a time.....but it wasn't enhanced by pathetic attempts to provide certification for the crap being churned out, as it is these days.
and ......I'm sure said majority do take pride...….but that's a minor percentage of people involved in the trade.