EICR Certificate not issued. Not all circuits RCD protected rated C2

[EricMark]

If it was deemed safe at the time of installation as has not been modified in any way then I see no reason as to why it needs a coding. I absolutely agree with an EICR report not being used to generate a sales lead, if you are an experienced sparks you don't have to be worried if you're doing the right thing by not coding it I find it's the less experienced sparks that codes everything just in case..

I agree with that, except add if has not degraded, we can advise that RCD protection is added, without needing to code it. The same applies for any other new safety feature.

There is just one small point however, and that is new appliances which could require extra protection or modifications to the supply which are not always notified to the owner.

Two things spring to mind, one is change from TN-S to TN-C-S and the other is EV charging.

Not including solar panels as these are installed not simply plugged in, so suitable RCD protection i.e. the type of RCD used, should be selected when the solar panel is installed. My two EV chargers are class II so no problem with RCD protection or disconnection of the TN-C-S earth under fault conditions, both vehicles are e-bikes, and this is a good point, e-bikes, fork lifts, and milk floats are still electric vehicles, but they do not present the same risk as the charger is not incorporated into the vehicle.

However going back in time we had to fit an RCD to a socket outlet likely to be used for garden equipment, today the question arises what protection is required for a socket outlet likely to be used to charge an EV outside?

I have been an electrician for over 50 years, and I don't know, I look at Mode 2 EV charging and scratch my head, some leads clearly have some thing in the lead, but not sure what is in the lead, and some so called charging units have a type A or even type AC RCBO, with some saying on the installation instructions should be protected with a type B RCD which raises the question why fit a RCBO in the unit?

So be it an inverter drive washing machine, fridge, freezer, or an EV there are items today which SOME claim stop the RCD tripping, yet others claim there is no problem, so the big question is if this equipment is used, is there a potential danger?

With a TN supply the RCD is an extra, we don't rely on the RCD, so no problem, where the problem arises is with a TT supply, if the RCD is frozen due to DC then it is serious, personally I like the RCBO as it means each circuit is independent, but it also means best you can get is type A.

However for the EICR we are not selecting what is used, all we are reporting on is the condition, this is what the C stands for, it is not a safety report, although I think it should be, and it is not a report showing how it complies, again I would like to see the return of code 4, so assuming the installation complied when installed, all we are looking for is degrading and damage.

Yes I agree the EICR is very like the EIC and some clients (local council build control for example) want it completing as if it was an EIC, but question is if no earth required before 1966 then why is it required today? I am talking about where MR16 lights converted from ELV to LV and cables not changed.

If not attracting a code C2 in a 1950's house, why should it attract a code C2 in a 2020 house?

 

[Risteard]

If not attracting a code C2 in a 1950's house, why should it attract a code C2 in a 2020 house?

Our understanding of - and indeed perception of - hazards evolves over time. That said, it shouldn't be judged differently simply owing to when it was done.

 

[EricMark]

Our understanding of - and indeed perception of - hazards evolves over time. That said, it shouldn't be judged differently simply owing to when it was done.

This is also my thoughts, I feel personally if it complies with any edition of BS 7671 then not code C2, but would not go back as far as "Rules and Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks Arising from Electric Lighting'. Issued in 1882." only back to when 16th edition was Reprinted as BS 7671:1992.

But that does not stop code C3 or comments being left, I would still point out things like no RCD, but unless combined with removal of bathroom bonding not a C2.

There are other items which I find are a problem, for example the DNO fuse size, the old Wylex fuse box had the main switch rated at 60 amp, where marked clearly 60 amp no problem, but where not marked, I am not sure if it should not be coded as FI?

This leaves a problem as the landlord laws in England stipulate the DNO equipment is not part of the EICR but the IET model forms includes a visual inspection of the DNO equipment, which is what in my mind we should do, so you can have a problem in does it pass or not.

 

[UKPN]

What exactly do you mean by this?

I will find the page for and come back to you ASAP

 

[UKPN]

This is also my thoughts, I feel personally if it complies with any edition of BS 7671 then not code C2, but would not go back as far as "Rules and Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks Arising from Electric Lighting'. Issued in 1882." only back to when 16th edition was Reprinted as BS 7671:1992.

But that does not stop code C3 or comments being left, I would still point out things like no RCD, but unless combined with removal of bathroom bonding not a C2.

There are other items which I find are a problem, for example the DNO fuse size, the old Wylex fuse box had the main switch rated at 60 amp, where marked clearly 60 amp no problem, but where not marked, I am not sure if it should not be coded as FI?

This leaves a problem as the landlord laws in England stipulate the DNO equipment is not part of the EICR but the IET model forms includes a visual inspection of the DNO equipment, which is what in my mind we should do, so you can have a problem in does it pass or not.

DNO equipment is out of scope of the wiring regulations

 

[EricMark]

DNO equipment is out of scope of the wiring regulations

The IET sample forms require a visual inspection of the DNO equipment.

 

[UKPN]

The IET sample forms require a visual inspection of the DNO equipment.

The wiring regs have no bearing on DNO equipment. The DNOs work to a legal framework, the wiring regs is a simple guide book. Short of an electrician reporting directly to a DNO a dangerous situation ( which experienced electricians have always done) the EICR form has no effect. As I said, DNO/Suppliers equip is nothing to do with a privately owned charity.

 

[Grant1987]

The wiring regs have no bearing on DNO equipment. The DNOs work to a legal framework, the wiring regs is a simple guide book. Short of an electrician reporting directly to a DNO a dangerous situation ( which experienced electricians have always done) the EICR form has no effect. As I said, DNO/Suppliers equip is nothing to do with a privately owned charity.

I agree with you here but I also understand what Erik is saying on our visual inspection we have to code the supply characteristics and I’ve had to ring the DNO as you’ve said to notify them of any immediate/potential danger, always same protocol with the call operator asking the same questions to determine severity of situation, almost all my concerns have been with the damaged casing which houses the supply cut out fuse. When they ask “is there immediate danger” my reply is “well I have the customers children here potching about and they can easily come in contact with exposed live parts” they instantly put it as an emergency and I’m not sure who mentioned gaffer tape but that’s exactly what I do. Stick that around the casing and know that will sort it until the DNO arrives

 

[EricMark]

Any safety item must be in writing, there can be a phone call as well, but be it email, SMS, letter, fax it must under HSE rules be in writing, so a fault noted should be on the EICR unless corrected while on site, so you can have a C2 for some thing which is not required under the land lord new laws, which clearly say the DNO equipment is not part of the inspection, and it also says appliances which are not portable should be included where the IET forms would include visual damage to the DNO equipment and would not include items which would be tested when doing the inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment.

The client is free to ask what he wants doing, for example the LABC may as one to do an EICR as if it were an installation certificate before issuing the completion certificate following the current regulations and listing any breaches of current regulations. But that would not be the normal way to do an EICR. This is what makes the land lord law silly, there is no hard and fixed rules as to what is included, including with town houses where there is no loft access except for one house.

There is nothing to say when a C2 has to be given, C1 yes, and you must list faults, but one can simply miss out C2 either C2 or C3 and there is nothing wrong doing that. In fact there is nothing to say you must code items, I have a report for this house done before I moved is which included the electrics so technically is an EICR but better known as home buyers report which was done by a professional which has no coding. It was flawed, but that is beside the point, it is a professional report which includes the state of the electrics, so by definition is an EICR.

 

[UKPN]

All,

I absolutely agree safety first!
Cost is not the issue
I want to understand if "not have all circuits RCD protected" is an automatic C2 rating
- Page 12 of the Best Practice Guide attached - implies to me no this is not a C2.
I am on here for guidance from experts. I am NOT an electrician. I would/ do appreciate your response and guidance.

You are going round in circles. Good builder Mr Church. Sadly he was killed in a plane crash. Great houses, great wiring. Disregard all this new age "coding", it has no legal standing. Oh by the way, its in the 18th ed, RCDs not reqd in previous eds. mind how you go. Regards, UKPN

 

[Grant1987]

You are going round in circles. Good builder Mr Church. Sadly he was killed in a plane crash. Great houses, great wiring. Disregard all this new age "coding", it has no legal standing. Oh by the way, its in the 18th ed, RCDs not reqd in previous eds. mind how you go. Regards, UKPN

I agree I’m getting bored of all this just upgrade/update to modern standards as much as you possibly can. I’m not saying any previous editions are not safe just feel that we always go round in circles with 15th/16th/17th and 18th edition anyway it’s nearing Xmas and the main thing is to stay safe and enjoy life this virus has brought sadness to us all so I’ve stayed away from this forum but want to wish you all well

 

[EricMark]

I also think the EICR has gone a bit silly, code 4 was removed (not complying with current regulations) and I think that was wrong, but as it stands we are not looking to see if it complies with any edition.

Assuming originally complied then looking for a degrade or change to the installation except there is it seems an extra.

We are also looking at the equipment used or likely to be used and is the installation suitable, this is a problem. Items like solar panels and EV charging points clear to see if used, but what is that 32 amp commando socket used for, is it used for an EV charger? Have the light bulbs been changed to LED? Will surges or spikes present a danger causing lights to fail etc.

I have listened to a talk about SPD and seen how 40% of the people at the talk felt lack of SPD would be a code C2, OK for commercial premises and single domestic are exempt, but as it stands there is no real directive and potentially dangerous to whom or what? If there is a potential danger of expensive equipment being damaged is that a C2?