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I have completed the 2919 course and was told during this that all chargers would require a TT connection, whether solely for the charger or as part of the full installation. Since completing the course a while ago now, I have discussed with some electricians who say they don't install an earth rod when the property is TN-C-S. What is the general view on this?
Also, the instructions for a Tesla charger says it is constantly monitoring for earth faults and over current, switching the charger off and on accordingly, does this mitigate the requirement for an earth rod? Because it is looking out for a lost neutral with a PME system? My argument is the charger could get confused thinking a main bonding conductor was the new supply to earth but we wouldn't deem this OK.

I will always install to what I believe is correct within the BS and the course I completed, but it gets confusing when you hear differing opinions within the trade. I look forward to hearing your views and welcome any suggested previous posts.

I hope everyone coping as well as they can be during the Covid-19 out break and my thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones and those who are struggling financially. Stay safe.
 
I am now retired so not really worried about electric vehicles, but in essence be it a boat, caravan, or car you have the same basic problem, if you connect the earth of a PME supply to the body under fault conditions that body can be connected to a phase, so unless in a building which is also bonded to that phase a danger exists, therefore when using the supply outside you only want to be using the live conductors of that supply i.e. line and neutral not the earth. However as to the earth from an earth rod this must not be close enough to a PME earth that both earth systems can be touched together and the voltage gradient in the ground is so no animal will be electrocuted should it walk there, and this includes humans.

With caravans the fire regulations are such that they can't be used closer than 5 meters from a building, so a connection point with it's own earth rod is not a problem, marinas tend to use wooden board walks to the boats, so again normally there is a natural spacing between any building with PME and the TT supplied to a boat.

With the fire after Richard Hammond's crash lasting 5 days, it seems likely fire regulations will required a spacing between a car on charge and a building, however I have not found one. So with a 5 meter gap between charging point and building there is no problem with TT.

Where the problem lies is where the car is parked closer to the building, clearly bricks and mortar are not good conductors, however we still have buildings with cast iron drain pipes outside, and gas and electric boxes outside, and since they are earthed to the buildings earth, then we must consider the possibility of some one touching both earth systems.

Although we have had electric vehicles for years, there has been a big change, forklifts, and Milk floats had their chargers static, and the connection was in the main less than 70 volt, and DC. Where with the new vehicles the charger is built into the vehicle not static, so this earthing question is some thing new.

When parking my caravan in the drive and plugging in to charge battery I used a TN-C-S supply as it is not a caravan park so the regulations for caravan parks did not apply, and it was within a meter of the gas and electric meter so to have a different earth could present a danger under fault conditions. The same was done with early car charging systems, but now the regulations will no longer permit that.

So if I am understanding the regulations, if the charging point is to supply a vehicle outside and the vehicle is too close to the premises to allow TT then only option is an isolating transformer? That would be rather expensive.

So I would say the big question is how close to the building are you allowed to fit a vehicle charging point? until that question is answered it is rather pointless talking about earthing systems, as if like a caravan no closer than 5 meters then no problem with TT.
 
I do recall someone posting about DNO research or similar on earth rods near others and or extraneous parts. Can’t recall the exact details, but it was below 5m, something like 2.8m.

Haven't seen or heard of isolating transformers for car chargers, but there is the other option of using a device that monitors the voltage, like the Zappi 2, I think is one.
 
I recall a friend who was a radio ham fitting an earth pit in his garden, this was for the transmitter, 4 earth rods one each corner of garden and earth tape buried 1 foot deep connecting them, never measured the earth as could not get far enough away to put in test probes, but it was clearly very good.

The earth was connected to a copper earth bar in his shed (shack) and the transceivers were connected to that, and he got a local electrician to wire up his shed, for some reason the 4 mm earth wire from the house was tie rapped under the feed cable, any way I got a call on 2 meter radio, he said my earth wire is getting hot, I said turn off your power, he replied he had done that, no change, so I drove down.

On arriving the earth wire was a load of copper balls under where it had been, and measuring voltage it was swinging between zero and 400 volt so rang the DNO and said think you have lost your earth/neutral they replied impossible that can't happen, but soon after there was an electric van at some road works down the road, and my friend was only house that did not have loads of burn out equipment.

Until that point I liked PME, but then realised under fault conditions there is a problem, it does not happen very often, but since then I have seen where copper theft has caused fires where the gas pipes have tried to earth a premises, now there are isolators in the gas pipes so pipe in ground and pipe in house not connected, and where every house has gas and water bonded, any fault load is shared, his problem was all houses in street were using his 4 mm earth wire.

However it is clear you can't really have earth electrodes and PME earth bonded together, at least not a good earth electrode, 60 ohm would be OK, but would guess his earth was better than 1 ohm.

Not got my copy of BS7671 here with me, but seem to remember diagrams showing arms length and instructions on how to earth cow sheds, OK dogs should not roam loose, and cats are quite small, however Colwyn Bay at the moment has wild goats roaming around the town, due to so few people on the streets, and are causing damage eating anything in sight, so we do get wild animals in our towns.

So any earthed metal structure must have enough distance from any other earthed structure using a different earth. So 25 volt is enough to kill a cow, and a cows legs are around a meter apart, so 230 volt divided by 25 = approx 9 meters, that is how much space is required to get a gradient shallow enough not to kill a cow, so 5 meters is a bit close, however electrically I think you may be correct 2.8 meters does seem to ring a bell, and I think fire regulations allow 3.5 meters at corners, only 5 meters side to side, 6 meters if not metal skin on caravan, so if cars parked in herring bone patten then 3.5 meters corner of car to building.

I am sure where I work the electric roller shutter doors are earthed, and the charging point is not 2.8 meters from the doors, and cars on charge could be right next to the doors, there is a lead from charging point to car, and the car is maybe 14 foot long, so unless the charging bay is clearly marked out with curbs etc to stop cars parking too close, then even if the charging point is 2.8 meters from any metal work earthed to buildings earth system, it does not mean the car will be that far away.

I would assume this would all be included in the training? We are not only trained to follow regulations we are also trained in how electric works, and to any tradesman it should be clear what distance is required, but where the problem lies is how do you say know if the regulations allow it. Same with this virus and building firms, if the government says stop, OK, but unless government says stop, any over time fines remain, same with regulations, if my boss says go and fit a charging point and it can't be done within regulations, simple I return saying can't be done, but however dangerous, how do you refuse to fit it, if it complies?

And at the end of the day, the fault which allows PME to end up with bonding to line, is rare, even with TN-C-S to the charging point one would be very unlucky for a fault to make it live, but it can happen, so petrol stations, boats, caravans, and like can't use PME.
 
However it is clear you can't really have earth electrodes and PME earth bonded together, at least not a good earth electrode, 60 ohm would be OK, but would guess his earth was better than 1 ohm.

Yes you can, and it would make good sense to do so, it is done in many other countries as a matter of course.
What you can't, or shouldn't, do is have the electrode connected by a 4mm earth back to the MET, the electrode should be connected by a conductor of at least the size required of a main bond for the supply.
 
However it is clear you can't really have earth electrodes and PME earth bonded together, at least not a good earth electrode, 60 ohm would be OK, but would guess his earth was better than 1 ohm.
It's a DNO requirement that street cabinets on a PME system have a supplementary earth electrode installed. Depending upon the expected maximum demand the resistance can vary but over a certain measurement the cabinet earthing must be converted to TT.
 
I have it in my mind, from something I watch, possibly E5Group vid, that the earth rod to MET option in Section 722, the Ra has to be ridiculous low for it to comply.
The annex to section 722 gives example calculations for the purpose of supplying an electrode to supplement the existing pme earthing Incase of an open PEN conductor and your right, the resistance is very low to achieve compliance
 
An extraneous-conductive-part or earth rod? One must remember being told as an apprentice you can't have earth rods on a TN-C-S supply, it was the trick question, as any earth rod was called an extraneous-conductive-part.

But with any cable there needs to be a current rating and traditionally with PEN it was 10 mm² but with TT it could be far smaller, and what we need to consider is will the cable take the earth current.

So in a workshop all bonding conductors were 25 mm² to ensure they would not melt, in that case it was due to welding currents, but the same applies to any PEN supply, had that friend used 16 mm² then likely it would have not melted and all would have been fine.

But in real terms we use resistors when connecting two earth systems, I have only seen it done once at point of aye gas terminal a box around 4 foot square had a massive resistor and the DNO earth and site earth were connected across that resistor so even if the DNO earth went to 230 volt nothing would burn out.

Clearly a single rod or 60 Ω is not going to allow enough current to flow to cause a problem, and if you have a water pipe connected at every house then because any fault is shared again no real problem, only when the site has really good earthing system is there likely to be a problem.

However just like when measuring the loop impedance in the main lower the better but if the prospective short circuit current exceeds the rating for protective device 4.7 kA or 10 kA then we may need a fuse or moulded breaker to take the fault current, the same applies to an earth, there is such a thing as an earth being too good.

Thing is I have never seen a fuse in an earth, only answer is a resistor, and as with many things because I have never needed to work out the size of a resistor I have never looked at how one works it out.
 
I'm sorry EricMark but I can't agree that an Earth electrode in any system type is an extraneous-conductive-part as it forms part of the electrical installation.
I lump of metal in the ground can have many names, pipe, re-bar, earth rod, girder, it depends what it is used for what name it is given, so connecting a steel rod coated in copper to the electrical system could be a sacrificial anode, it all depends what it is used for, so it may be classed as either an extraneous-conductive-part or earth rod, the designer gives it a name, we all know in old houses often the connection to earth rods has gone and only real earth is the water and gas pipes, but that does not make them earth electrodes, because they were not designed to be earth electrodes, it is just a name.
 
You could achieve protection with two RCDs in series:
  • First one is the normal 2-pole RCD/RCBO that you would use to protect the AC supply to any outside sort of unit. Would protect against typical L-E faults.
  • Second one feeds L, N and E through a "4-pole" RCD so in the event of CNE open and someone touching the car, the shock current is detected on the E line and it then trips isolating all wires. (L & N should always balance, here they are needed simply so they are isolated simultaneously with the earth disconnection, but L-E fault will not trip in this case)
No earth rods and risk to buried services, no worries about being on the wrong phase and not seeing enough of an out-of-range voltage to trip the likes of the Matt:e boxes.

i dont agree with that? Your suppost to eliminate the car shell becoming live should a open PEN conductor occur not wait for someone to have a shock and hope the rcd trips which it wouldnt with the loss of neutral conductor!
 
Have a look at the MyEnergi Zappi car charger no need for earth rod no need for rcd and moniters the current so that it wont exceed the main fuse
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnEG8jhOHBw

does look a good charger. Do you have to be trained by the manufacturer to fit them?

guy in video, has no single point of isolation for the installation Now. The earth & blue sleeving used was rather large, no spd? But dont know when it was filmed..
 

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