EV Charger Installation - Cabling Query?

[pirate]

Yes, DPG, it is the future! But it is here, now!
OK, they want to ban diesel cars, and make it very expensive, especially in Inner London, wherever that hell may be...but the powers that be simply want to tax the private consumer, while the belching buses and lorries continue to pollute to a much higher degree.
Just try telling Eddie Stobart (!) to replace his entire fleet with electric vehicles, DPD, UPS, FedEx, every bus company...the average motorist was tempted, actually encouraged, to go diesel, a few years ago, and now we are being targeted as an easy revenue-point. Yes, i could change my diesel car for an electric one, but to get the same performance, with limited charging options, I would have to buy a Tesla...and i simply can't afford one. I could buy a petrol car, but still I will be targetted to go greener. No!
The private/light commercial guys are being asked to cough up (no pun intended) yet again, while the major polluting vehicles are ignored. Commerce depends on road transport by diesel trucks, buses, whatever...construction depends on diesel machinery, JCBs RBs, Drots, D8s, any amount of diesel-guzzling machinery, yet a tiny minority of road users are being hit with the mantra of "go green"...while certain countries continue to open coal-fire power stations at the rate of 100 a year. We are not the villains, we are the victims.
Thus, who better to hassle than the tax-paying individuals? We are easily identifiable, we cannot avoid the taxes, we have no "clout", we just have to pay up or shut up.
I have looked at EV technology. I have actually explored the possibility of buying an electric car, but the cost of installing a charging point at my home is enough to buy me a year's worth..no, 3 years' worth of diesel, and as a pensioner I have decided to stick with the technology I have. OK, the road tax is higher, but the "cost to change" is significant too. I'm fed up being dictated to, while other sectors are left alone.
I know I will be labelled as Can't Use New Technology (the acronym is clear) but until we tax cyclists too, and make them pay for insurance and road use, and impose number plates on them, I will simply continue to use my diesel car until the authorities tighten the emmission laws so much that my car will fail the MOT, no matter how efficient my car actually is...and that move is coming. Will they impose the same restrictions on commercial vehicles? Will they impose such laws on the big commercial operators that pay into the Party coffers? Will they simply pursue the wee people who try to make a living? You know the answer.
Getting rid of 1% of the problem of pollution is no result at all. Before any of you argue that it's 5%, or 10%...I don't care! It's a very small percentage, and insignificant in the fight against pollution. There are many worse offenders, but we are being persecuted...
Rant over!

for now...

and as the late, great Alistair Cooke, used to say after his radio broadcast "Letter From America"..."if you have been...thank you for listening"

 

[Midwest]

I have a diesel car for sale...very economical, and can be "recharged" at thousands of points all over the world, in a matter of minutes, and each charge will take you about 500 miles.
Just saying...

It stinks though (one, two, three, four, five).

 

[hyeung]

I wrote the EO and advised on my current install via PME earth; and also wanted to clarify their view if it would be possible to get something that would work for me i.e. both indoor and outside charging, whilst charger is located inside the garage.
Their response is below, and expected. It appears they also contacted the Installer which I did not expect. The Installer also replied to EO's response shown also below.

The Installer also contacted me over the phone, probably because he realised that I had got in touch with the supplier.
Unfortunately, there was no easy solution for my use-case, which I understand. He's view is that the recommended TT earthing would mean yes I can charge outside no problems, but because of the internal electrics within the garage (lights, sockets, boiler, gas pipes, and even garage door opener) these would all be utilising the PME earth and feels there would be a risk still i.e. if I have something plugged into the sockets I could still be at a risk of being in contact with PME earth and the TT earth (touching car whilst charging). So he doesn't feel the recommendations by EO are valid for me to satisfy my use-case of inside charging as well.

I think in a previous post I queried on the risks with my indoor garage setup when charging on a TT earth setup i.e. photos of my garage showing the sockets, pipes, boiler, garage opener, lights etc.

He did also mention options of change everything in the garage to be TT earth (but realises this would be a lot of work and not practical); also the use of a transformer (box of tricks), but at a high cost, and again its not economically viable.
We also talked about other charger such as the Zappi, which they fit and runs on PME earth and believe that would work for both inside and out. However, he never suggested that he could offer to switch to that for me...but understandably it would probably mean he'd take the hit on the existing EO charger (i.e. probably can't returned it).

We also talked about the location of my charger unit, and realises that maybe they shouldn't have installed it so close to the door. However, I did point out that as it is an untethered unit, even if you did move it to the front of the garage, one can still buy a 10m cable and it would still reach the outside of the garage.

So in the end there really was no solution for me to accommodate my indoor and outdoor charging use-cases. Short from buying another unit, which I cant!
What are your thoughts, should the installer be responsible in this case to get me something that's fit for purpose for me?
In terms of the install attension to detail, I couldn't fault them and were good. I do admit that I never mentioned details of where I would charge prior to the job; but did send them plans and locations of where I wanted the charge point (next to garage door inside). They never asked me where I intended to use it (i.e. inside only or inside and outside). I assumed I could use it for both, and equally I was unaware of such technical issues with the earthing, so did not realise this would be such a big issue until after the job.....

The installer also forwarded me the email he sent in response to EO shown below.

I also contacted EO after seeing the emails, and talked through things. Although EO's view is that the installer comes back to change the setup to TT earth, after I spoke to the chap and showed him my garage i.e. all the electrics - sockets, garage opener, lights, pipes and boiler. He agreed that with the TT earth setup, charging indoors would not be suitable. Hence, also thinks sticking to the existing PME earthing is probably be best route provided its only for indoor use.

So there you go. I think I'm now stuck with what I have? I don't see any other option but to accept the install as is, and consider only charging inside for now.
If we do get another EV, I guess I could get another charger for that (but this would definitely be one that can cater for both indoors and outdoors)….or simply install another charger purely for outdoors....so probably the latter.

I still wish the Installer could let me return and get another suitable unit which would be the next best route. But I doubt this is going to happen?

Any last thoughts on this?
So thanks to everyone's input and feedback over the last few days. Its certainly been educational for me! and i'm sure others have found it interesting It just unfortunate the way this planned out. But don't see any other solutions.


EO's response:
"Since the 1st of January 2019 the new (18th) edition of BS7671 has been in force, and any installations completed after this date would have to follow the below….

Regulation 722.411.4.1
A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors or that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors.

There then follows three addendums to work around this, which I’ve shortened…

1. Only applies to three phase installations
2. The MET (Main Earthing Terminal) is connected to an earth electrode, with resistance suitable to allow touch voltage to remain below 70v in the issue of an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor. These resistances would be 3.14Ω for a 7.2kW charger, or 6.29Ω for a 3.6kW. (Extremely difficult to achieve such low readings)
3. Protect the installation with a device which disconnects both live and protective conductors (live, neutral and earth) in the event of a fault – These devices are not currently capable of operating on a single-phase supply

Therefore the only realistic option would be to ensure the charger is electrically separate from the earth provided by the incoming TN-C-S/PME, and the only way to do this at present is to install an earth rod locally to the charger so it is given its own TT earthing system. As this charger has been installed close to the door of a garage, it can reasonably be expected to charge a vehicle located outdoors; so provided it was installed after 01/01/19, (which is certain as the installed product wasn’t released until July 2019) it should already be separated from the PME and an earth rod installed. The original installer would need to rectify this – Any OLEV registered installer should be expected to be aware of this requirement and therefore should have allowed for it during the original install. This installation is not currently compliant, and the works to resolve this need to be completed without additional costs to the customer.
Hope this helps"

Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.

Mr OP had requested a quotation for a charge point to be installed inside the garage and there was no mention of charging outside until the day of installation. We have reviewed our process and will ensure customers are aware that EO charge points installed inside are for use inside and charge points installed outside are for use outside.

With the tethered cable being 5 meters long it is not always practicable to install in a location that prevents the cable reaching an outdoor location, similarly when the charge point is installed on the external wall this is usually directly outside the garage door and this would allow the customer to charge inside the garage if they so decided, again we will ensure the regulations are made clear to all customers.

I would say that separating the charge point from the PME earth and connecting to a TT earth whilst installed inside the garage and the car charging inside the garage is not an option as there are other electrics connected to the PME earth with in the garage, the only option to achieve this would be to install an isolating transformer for the charge point, I have relayed this information to Mr OP.

I have emailed Mr OP today and will follow it up with the proposal to reposition the charge point further inside the garage if he wishes although we have clarified that the charge point is for indoor use only and await his instruction.

I can assure you that Mr OPs installation will be completed to his satisfaction and at no extra cost unless his requirements change.
I will keep you updated."

 

[Midwest]

Yes, DPG, it is the future! But it is here, now!
OK, they want to ban diesel cars, and make it very expensive, especially in Inner London, wherever that hell may be...but the powers that be simply want to tax the private consumer, while the belching buses and lorries continue to pollute to a much higher degree.
Just try telling Eddie Stobart (!) to replace his entire fleet with electric vehicles, DPD, UPS, FedEx, every bus company...the average motorist was tempted, actually encouraged, to go diesel, a few years ago, and now we are being targeted as an easy revenue-point. Yes, i could change my diesel car for an electric one, but to get the same performance, with limited charging options, I would have to buy a Tesla...and i simply can't afford one. I could buy a petrol car, but still I will be targetted to go greener. No!
The private/light commercial guys are being asked to cough up (no pun intended) yet again, while the major polluting vehicles are ignored. Commerce depends on road transport by diesel trucks, buses, whatever...construction depends on diesel machinery, JCBs RBs, Drots, D8s, any amount of diesel-guzzling machinery, yet a tiny minority of road users are being hit with the mantra of "go green"...while certain countries continue to open coal-fire power stations at the rate of 100 a year. We are not the villains, we are the victims.
Thus, who better to hassle than the tax-paying individuals? We are easily identifiable, we cannot avoid the taxes, we have no "clout", we just have to pay up or shut up.
I have looked at EV technology. I have actually explored the possibility of buying an electric car, but the cost of installing a charging point at my home is enough to buy me a year's worth..no, 3 years' worth of diesel, and as a pensioner I have decided to stick with the technology I have. OK, the road tax is higher, but the "cost to change" is significant too. I'm fed up being dictated to, while other sectors are left alone.
I know I will be labelled as Can't Use New Technology (the acronym is clear) but until we tax cyclists too, and make them pay for insurance and road use, and impose number plates on them, I will simply continue to use my diesel car until the authorities tighten the emmission laws so much that my car will fail the MOT, no matter how efficient my car actually is...and that move is coming. Will they impose the same restrictions on commercial vehicles? Will they impose such laws on the big commercial operators that pay into the Party coffers? Will they simply pursue the wee people who try to make a living? You know the answer.
Getting rid of 1% of the problem of pollution is no result at all. Before any of you argue that it's 5%, or 10%...I don't care! It's a very small percentage, and insignificant in the fight against pollution. There are many worse offenders, but we are being persecuted...
Rant over!

for now...

and as the late, great Alistair Cooke, used to say after his radio broadcast "Letter From America"..."if you have been...thank you for listening"

You been drinking the same elixia as @darkwood. He normally bangs on for several paragraphs.

 

[pirate]

This has been very interesting.
However, I look back and see our friend JK told it like it is right at the start.
Some may have been incredulous, some in denial, but it seems to me that the situation is much clearer now.
In 5 years' time, all will have changed, but for now we are stuck with it. next, we will have plug-in chargers that are simply a separate circuit, a dedicated radial to a unit that takes care of all the hassle...and at that point...




I will still be driving my diesel car!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I wrote the EO and advised on my current install via PME earth; and also wanted to clarify their view if it would be possible to get something that would work for me i.e. both indoor and outside charging, whilst charger is located inside the garage.
Their response is below, and expected. It appears they also contacted the Installer which I did not expect. The Installer also replied to EO's response shown also below.

The Installer also contacted me over the phone, probably because he realised that I had got in touch with the supplier.
Unfortunately, there was no easy solution for my use-case, which I understand. He's view is that the recommended TT earthing would mean yes I can charge outside no problems, but because of the internal electrics within the garage (lights, sockets, boiler, gas pipes, and even garage door opener) these would all be utilising the PME earth and feels there would be a risk still i.e. if I have something plugged into the sockets I could still be at a risk of being in contact with PME earth and the TT earth (touching car whilst charging). So he doesn't feel the recommendations by EO are valid for me to satisfy my use-case of inside charging as well.

I think in a previous post I queried on the risks with my indoor garage setup when charging on a TT earth setup i.e. photos of my garage showing the sockets, pipes, boiler, garage opener, lights etc.

He did also mention options of change everything in the garage to be TT earth (but realises this would be a lot of work and not practical); also the use of a transformer (box of tricks), but at a high cost, and again its not economically viable.
We also talked about other charger such as the Zappi, which they fit and runs on PME earth and believe that would work for both inside and out. However, he never suggested that he could offer to switch to that for me...but understandably it would probably mean he'd take the hit on the existing EO charger (i.e. probably can't returned it).

We also talked about the location of my charger unit, and realises that maybe they shouldn't have installed it so close to the door. However, I did point out that as it is an untethered unit, even if you did move it to the front of the garage, one can still buy a 10m cable and it would still reach the outside of the garage.

So in the end there really was no solution for me to accommodate my indoor and outdoor charging use-cases. Short from buying another unit, which I cant!
What are your thoughts, should the installer be responsible in this case to get me something that's fit for purpose for me?
In terms of the install attension to detail, I couldn't fault them and were good. I do admit that I never mentioned details of where I would charge prior to the job; but did send them plans and locations of where I wanted the charge point (next to garage door inside). They never asked me where I intended to use it (i.e. inside only or inside and outside). I assumed I could use it for both, and equally I was unaware of such technical issues with the earthing, so did not realise this would be such a big issue until after the job.....

The installer also forwarded me the email he sent in response to EO shown below.

I also contacted EO after seeing the emails, and talked through things. Although EO's view is that the installer comes back to change the setup to TT earth, after I spoke to the chap and showed him my garage i.e. all the electrics - sockets, garage opener, lights, pipes and boiler. He agreed that with the TT earth setup, charging indoors would not be suitable. Hence, also thinks sticking to the existing PME earthing is probably be best route provided its only for indoor use.

So there you go. I think I'm now stuck with what I have? I don't see any other option but to accept the install as is, and consider only charging inside for now.
If we do get another EV, I guess I could get another charger for that (but this would definitely be one that can cater for both indoors and outdoors)….or simply install another charger purely for outdoors....so probably the latter.

I still wish the Installer could let me return and get another suitable unit which would be the next best route. But I doubt this is going to happen?

Any last thoughts on this?
So thanks to everyone's input and feedback over the last few days. Its certainly been educational for me! and i'm sure others have found it interesting It just unfortunate the way this planned out. But don't see any other solutions.


EO's response:
"Since the 1st of January 2019 the new (18th) edition of BS7671 has been in force, and any installations completed after this date would have to follow the below….

Regulation 722.411.4.1
A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors or that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors.

There then follows three addendums to work around this, which I’ve shortened…

1. Only applies to three phase installations
2. The MET (Main Earthing Terminal) is connected to an earth electrode, with resistance suitable to allow touch voltage to remain below 70v in the issue of an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor. These resistances would be 3.14Ω for a 7.2kW charger, or 6.29Ω for a 3.6kW. (Extremely difficult to achieve such low readings)
3. Protect the installation with a device which disconnects both live and protective conductors (live, neutral and earth) in the event of a fault – These devices are not currently capable of operating on a single-phase supply

Therefore the only realistic option would be to ensure the charger is electrically separate from the earth provided by the incoming TN-C-S/PME, and the only way to do this at present is to install an earth rod locally to the charger so it is given its own TT earthing system. As this charger has been installed close to the door of a garage, it can reasonably be expected to charge a vehicle located outdoors; so provided it was installed after 01/01/19, (which is certain as the installed product wasn’t released until July 2019) it should already be separated from the PME and an earth rod installed. The original installer would need to rectify this – Any OLEV registered installer should be expected to be aware of this requirement and therefore should have allowed for it during the original install. This installation is not currently compliant, and the works to resolve this need to be completed without additional costs to the customer.
Hope this helps"

Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.

Mr OP had requested a quotation for a charge point to be installed inside the garage and there was no mention of charging outside until the day of installation. We have reviewed our process and will ensure customers are aware that EO charge points installed inside are for use inside and charge points installed outside are for use outside.

With the tethered cable being 5 meters long it is not always practicable to install in a location that prevents the cable reaching an outdoor location, similarly when the charge point is installed on the external wall this is usually directly outside the garage door and this would allow the customer to charge inside the garage if they so decided, again we will ensure the regulations are made clear to all customers.

I would say that separating the charge point from the PME earth and connecting to a TT earth whilst installed inside the garage and the car charging inside the garage is not an option as there are other electrics connected to the PME earth with in the garage, the only option to achieve this would be to install an isolating transformer for the charge point, I have relayed this information to Mr OP.

I have emailed Mr OP today and will follow it up with the proposal to reposition the charge point further inside the garage if he wishes although we have clarified that the charge point is for indoor use only and await his instruction.

I can assure you that Mr OPs installation will be completed to his satisfaction and at no extra cost unless his requirements change.
I will keep you updated."

I think the decision of what to do next is a non electrical one hyeung and therefore up to you. The installers sound professional and decent, however they did make an error. Perhaps as a compromise you could discuss paying some of it depending on what the next step is. They sound open to sensible communication.
Good luck and try and enjoy your new electric car, it's not the end of the world if you have to charge it only inside.

 

[pirate]

Yes, good point, happy hippy dad!
If you go to, say, Abington services, on the M74, you have two choices...
use the free Tesla charging points (if you have a tesla) there are 5 or 6 of them...
or use the other one...yes, 1.

I have never seen anyone use these.
still, if you have an electric car, do enjoy it...I am sure it will be a way forward.

Just to ask one final question...

I am not allowed to ride a Segway on the public roads...(in most of the rest of Europe, as we currently know it, I can...)
So how come Maisie the 80 year old, partially deaf and blind lady, can race her motability electric scooter down the pedestrian precinct, silently zooming up behind me, without a licence or tax, and without taking a proper driving test?
Clearly, I need to get one!

 

[Deleted account]

Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.”

That says it all.

There is no “possibly we should have”.

“Requested by the customer”
If I installed a new lighting circuit and the customer requested I not fit an RCD I would not take the customers request. I would explain the regulations and either fit it as part of the job or not do it. Simple.

 

[marconi]

There are some products which will detect a loss of neutral eg: See page 142 of:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2547874.pdf

And Solatek make this device which one could use to power a DOL contactor which supplied the power to the EV charger:

AVS30 - Max 30amps Voltage Protection - Sollatek

AVS30 - Complete power protection device combining over voltage, under voltage, powerback surges/spikes protection.

www.sollatek.com

And then there are some makes of active RCDs which will trip on loss of neutral.

Food for thought.....

 

[hyeung]

I think the decision of what to do next is a non electrical one hyeung and therefore up to you. The installers sound professional and decent, however they did make an error. Perhaps as a compromise you could discuss paying some of it depending on what the next step is. They sound open to sensible communication.
Good luck and try and enjoy your new electric car, it's not the end of the world if you have to charge it only inside.

Ok just an update on the issue....as I've had pretty good progress as of today. The installer called me today, and the outcome was that he's going to swap the charger unit for me. The options of getting the new zappi v2 charger which works with PME earth without the need of an Earth rod.. -

EV Charger | Low Cost Home Electric Car Charging

Get a fully installed zappi home EV charger, featuring low cost energy tariff integration and solar charging, all proudly made in Britain.

myenergi.com

The key thing is that the new charging unit connects to PME earth and can detect the PEN conductor loss faults. So can be used both inside and outside. RESULT!!
The only thing is that the unit is gonna cost an extra £100. But happy with this, as it gives me what I want....
As its a new development, they are anticipating stock toward the end of the month, so should get this installed in place of the EO unit. Seems to be full of features which support Solar etc.
There is an additional hub that needs to be connected to the router, and a CT clamp that they attached to the mains (at the meter) and the other end routed to the charging unit (for realtime consumption etc).

So i think all ends well? Got there in the end somehow! unforunate that with the initial path, but can't be helped.

Will update once i get the install
And car arriving next week!

Once again, thanks for everyone's comments and feedback. I wouldn't have got to such a positive outcome without the help from this forum!!
Cheers.

 

[DPG]

It's been an education for a lot of us I think.

 

[hyeung]

It's been an education for a lot of us I think.

Will probably change again in a few years

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Ok just an update on the issue....as I've had pretty good progress as of today. The installer called me today, and the outcome was that he's going to swap the charger unit for me. The options of getting the new zappi v2 charger which works with PME earth without the need of an Earth rod.. -

EV Charger | Low Cost Home Electric Car Charging

Get a fully installed zappi home EV charger, featuring low cost energy tariff integration and solar charging, all proudly made in Britain.

myenergi.com

The key thing is that the new charging unit connects to PME earth and can detect the PEN conductor loss faults. So can be used both inside and outside. RESULT!!
The only thing is that the unit is gonna cost an extra £100. But happy with this, as it gives me what I want....
As its a new development, they are anticipating stock toward the end of the month, so should get this installed in place of the EO unit. Seems to be full of features which support Solar etc.
There is an additional hub that needs to be connected to the router, and a CT clamp that they attached to the mains (at the meter) and the other end routed to the charging unit (for realtime consumption etc).

So i think all ends well? Got there in the end somehow! unforunate that with the initial path, but can't be helped.

Will update once i get the install
And car arriving next week!

Once again, thanks for everyone's comments and feedback. I wouldn't have got to such a positive outcome without the help from this forum!!
Cheers.

Perfect ending hyeung, i'm happy for you.
I'd stick with those electricians for any future work if I was you.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Also thanks to @JK-Electrical, I've learnt alot from all your threads and video clips. I've even got this thread copied now for future reference!

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Give it 12 months this isnt going to be an issue as the new generation of chargers such as the podpoint solo are now coming out which can be used on a PME supply with no rod required. uses a mix of DC monitoring and a mains tails clamp to assess loads etc..