general rant....ish

[stanleyblade]

firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies

 

[telectrix]

got you. i'd forgotten about the OP's bit about the unfused cooker connection units. it was a few hours ago that i first read the OP. and that's way above my 3 minute attention span. at the time i agreed with his refusal to connect.

 

[Des 56]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

 

[Guitarist]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

 

[Des 56]

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

Sorry to confuse the flow of the thread
The post above is correct and I agree entirely with the comment and have not made argument against the advise

My reply was to the kitchen fitter where he replied to my own question to him "Have you read the section on fixed appliances"

"not as yet des, that will now be my light read material for bed time".




​

 

[Guitarist]

Sorry Des, I misunderstood your point

 

[stanleyblade]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

 

[Guitarist]

Personally, considering that you were being asked to contravene the regs by not following manufacturers instructions, I think you did the right thing (though I know the electrician wouldn't agree). Always better to be safe than sorry with electrics.

 

[Dave 85]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

This now be an argument of the past when referring to regulation 530.4.2 on how we fit equipment.

This was the reg often quoted with the term " and fixed to the fabric of the building" when arguing whether or not you classed a kitchen cupboard as part of the building fabric, this quote as now been deleted from the above reg and as far as the BS 7671-2008 anywhere is fair game when fixing such equipment.

Of course Accessibility, workmanship etc will still I'm sure be part of an argument

 

[AndyL]

As a domestic cooker would not fall under the scope of BS EN 60204, therefore the regs you quote are for emergency switching and not applicable in this case

These normally fall under the umbrella of Standards , BS EN 50304:2009+A1:2010, BS EN 60350:2009

Those regs are not for BS EN 60204, 537.4.1 specifically says so, they also go on to say that if the switch is for emergency switching it should preferably be coloured red, which is my understanding as to why most cooker switches are red

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well a cooker switch may be red, except of course some chrome models which are not, but I have never seen many that are actually marked "Emergency stop" or with a sign underneath it that indicates it is an emergency stop as in regulation 537.4.2.7 requires

And as a Kitchen switch can not either be latched/restrained in the "off" position, and in a domestic situation you can not afford the situation of "under control of the same person" the same as with "under the supervision" with regards to socket outlets, I have a feeling your arguments about domestic cooker switches being "Emergency" is a little flimsy.

 

[RISElectrical]

From a purely regulatory way of thinking, having the switching for the kitchen appliances in the basement is not against any regulations as far as I am aware. Suggesting a domestic cooker needs emergency switching is ludicrous IMO

As has been said somewhere before on this thread. If the cooker were to burst into flames then the last place I would want to go to isolate it would be within 2 meters and usually the cooker isolator is within 500mm. If this was the recommended place for an emergency stop then I would be thinking thats a stupid place and should in fact like many emergency switching items (gas shut offs etc) be ideally situated along the escape route.