Go on Laugh I don't care

[gazdkw82]

Whose not competent?

Quite a broad statement that gaz....

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

 

[Baddegg]

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

Of course its impossible to be competent in anything after a few weeks

 

[Pete999]

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

Competency in any realm requires experience, does it not

 

[telectrix]

Competency in any realm requires experience, does it not

that's put it in a nutshell. no amount of classroom teaching can impart the knowledge of best way to route cables, how to chase without a wall crumbling round your ears, how to lift floorboards without butchering them, etc., etc., this can only be obtained through on-site experience.

 

[Intoelectrics]

that's put it in a nutshell. no amount of classroom teaching can impart the knowledge of best way to route cables, how to chase without a wall crumbling round your ears, how to lift floorboards without butchering them, etc., etc., this can only be obtained through on-site experience.

I agree, and you can see this everyday when somebody new or learning the trade have to seek advice on something that an experienced person learnt years back. There is no substitute for time and experience.

"Competency" is a broad term in the sense that somebody can be classed as competent from either experience or qualification. Yet in real life situations we all know that you cannot be really competent without experience no matter how qualified you are.
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Whose not competent?

Depends on what you class as competent. I could go and qualify to fly a plane, I could go on the simulators and learn very "competently" to be able to fly a plane. If you had the choice to fly with me or with a time served experienced pilot, who might well be less qualified, who's hands would you put your life in? I know who I would choose.

I don't think we are being judgemental to a person's capabilities based on their route to qualification. As in my example above, I may turn out to be a fantastic pilot, just as good as a time served pilot. But in reality this would actually be very unlikely and if so, not in the majority. My personal opinion is that short courses, provided they don't cut too many corners can be great for folk who haven't got the means and time to spend with so much studying. The problem I have is once completed, without enough experience are the majority of folk going be "competent" enough to safely do the job?

 

[Spoon]

My personal opinion is that short courses, provided they don't cut too many corners can be great for folk who haven't got the means and time to spend with so much studying. The problem I have is once completed, without enough experience are the majority of folk going be "competent" enough to safely do the job?

I'm with @Introelectrics on this. I have nothing against these short courses. In previous threads about this there have been members who have done these courses and know the limitations of the course and work within these limits. They know they will gain knowledge and experience over time and progress.

 

[SparkyChick]

The judgement is taking the form of blanket statements such as short coursers can't be competent. I'd put a £10 on me being more competent with zero formal training than a lot of current apprentices and I'd go so far as to say some of the local apprenticed sparks.

Someone's route into the industry has very little correlation on the quality of work they will do in my considered opinion. If they don't give a ----, whatever they do will be garbage whether they did an apprenticeship or a short course. I've seen enough shoddy work in my area to know this to be the case and if anyone claims being an apprentice is guaranteed to make you a better spark, I think you're deluding yourself.

Yes, you can gain more practical experience doing an apprenticeship, but based on what I've seen of a company I know to use apprentices heavily it could just as easily be garbage experience at the penny pinching end of the installation market, things like cables stretched tight in lofts and zero slack anywhere if you need to redress a cable (a clear indication in my mind of people who have never - or rarely - had to do maintenance on an installation).

So instead of dissing short coursers (I think it's fair to say that any that are here are trying to improve themselves - but may be being discouraged by the anti sentiment that seems to be picking up again - no surprise there I suppose) how about you get the thread back on track and discuss the actual information the OP is after? Just a thought.

 

[telectrix]

what gets my back up is the way these short courses are sold. "5 weeks and 6 grand and you'll be a qualified spark/domestic installer". Rubbish. there are those that have an aptitude for it and can progress with experience,maybe working alongside someone, and there are those that will never make it as long as they have a hole in their arse.

 

[gazdkw82]

Don't think anyone is "dissing" the short courses sparkychick. Its the freedom and confidence it can give to someone who has spent a very short time in training and doesn't understand the dangers to themselves and others that is in discussion.

I don't understand why everyone thinks we are sharing a negative viewpoint

 

[telectrix]

it's all amatter of degree. once upon a time sparks were looked up to as the senior trade. why, because if a wet-pants gets it wrong, the cat gets a bath. joiner gets it wrong, the cabinet falls on the worktop. sparks gets it wrong, someone dies.

 

[SparkyChick]

Don't think anyone is "dissing" the short courses sparkychick. Its the freedom and confidence it can give to someone who has spent a very short time in training and doesn't understand the dangers to themselves and others that is in discussion.

I don't understand why everyone thinks we are sharing a negative viewpoint

The reason people get irritated is because whenever this subject comes up, there are blanket statements made that imply we're not competent. It certainly gets right up my nose because of what I've seen and experienced since I started my business and I've lost count of how many times I've not waded into the debate, instead sitting back biting my tongue so to speak.

I'm not saying all short coursers are brilliant, because they aren't, but we're not all incompetent idiots either. Just as I'm not saying all apprenticed sparks are garbage, because they aren't, but they aren't all brilliant either.

As for the freedom and confidence it can give someone... if someone is stupid enough not to realise their own limitations, their route into this industry is not going to change a thing. That's if they go and do any form of training at all. They will still go out there and do bad work, but more often than not when bad work is posted it's not long before there is an implication that it's the efforts of a short courser.

Just the other day I witnessed some fine work from a large local firm that's been around for years and years... cracking job, isolating a lighting point that's no longer needed with PVC tape... nice one! Not the first time I've witnessed their amazing standards. And for some balance, I had to tighten all the factory connections and incomers on a new consumer unit installed back in June by someone I believe to be a short courser. Again, not the first time I've encountered his bad work either but a cracking example of how to flagrantly lie on a schedule of test results. Do they understand the dangers they are leaving behind? Clearly not, or it is simply they just don't care. I truly believe it's a combination of both and no amount of training will fix that kind of attitude.

Accept that there are good and bad sparks entering the industry through both routes and don't lump all the bad stuff out there on those of us who went the short course route and we'll all get along just fine.

it's all amatter of degree. once upon a time sparks were looked up to as the senior trade. why, because if a wet-pants gets it wrong, the cat gets a bath. joiner gets it wrong, the cabinet falls on the worktop. sparks gets it wrong, someone dies.

Quite, which is why whenever I encounter a situation I'm not 100% comfortable with, I come and here and ask for advice. That's where the 'anti short courser' sentiment and comments can be a problem. Surely it's better to have people come here and ask questions knowing they won't get abuse than coming here seeing 'short courser bodger', 'boil in the bag sparky' etc. etc. and leave, thus missing out on an opportunity to learn from more experienced people?

I guess the TLDR; for this post is:- Don't tar us all with the same brush, we're not all incompetent and many of us actively want to learn and improve by soaking up knowledge from more experienced people. Those who don't will never come to forums and ask because in their little corner of the universe they already know it all and are capable of anything.

 

[DPG]

Yes, that's one of the main problems - people not being aware of their linitations. In all fields.

 

[oracle]

Going from being able to wire up a two way switch and ring on a metre wide wooden surface without seeing an Installation certificate,much less completing one to trading as an installer leaves them a long way from competent. I’ve seen DIY work done better.

 

[gazdkw82]

The reason people get irritated is because whenever this subject comes up, there are blanket statements made that imply we're not competent. It certainly gets right up my nose because of what I've seen and experienced since I started my business and I've lost count of how many times I've not waded into the debate, instead sitting back biting my tongue so to speak.

I'm not saying all short coursers are brilliant, because they aren't, but we're not all incompetent idiots either. Just as I'm not saying all apprenticed sparks are garbage, because they aren't, but they aren't all brilliant either.

As for the freedom and confidence it can give someone... if someone is stupid enough not to realise their own limitations, their route into this industry is not going to change a thing. That's if they go and do any form of training at all. They will still go out there and do bad work, but more often than not when bad work is posted it's not long before there is an implication that it's the efforts of a short courser.

Just the other day I witnessed some fine work from a large local firm that's been around for years and years... cracking job, isolating a lighting point that's no longer needed with PVC tape... nice one! Not the first time I've witnessed their amazing standards. And for some balance, I had to tighten all the factory connections and incomers on a new consumer unit installed back in June by someone I believe to be a short courser. Again, not the first time I've encountered his bad work either but a cracking example of how to flagrantly lie on a schedule of test results. Do they understand the dangers they are leaving behind? Clearly not, or it is simply they just don't care. I truly believe it's a combination of both and no amount of training will fix that kind of attitude.

Accept that there are good and bad sparks entering the industry through both routes and don't lump all the bad stuff out there on those of us who went the short course route and we'll all get along just fine.



Quite, which is why whenever I encounter a situation I'm not 100% comfortable with, I come and here and ask for advice. That's where the 'anti short courser' sentiment and comments can be a problem. Surely it's better to have people come here and ask questions knowing they won't get abuse than coming here seeing 'short courser bodger', 'boil in the bag sparky' etc. etc. and leave, thus missing out on an opportunity to learn from more experienced people?

I guess the TLDR; for this post is:- Don't tar us all with the same brush, we're not all incompetent and many of us actively want to learn and improve by soaking up knowledge from more experienced people. Those who don't will never come to forums and ask because in their little corner of the universe they already know it all and are capable of anything.

What irritates me are people who don't actually take on board what someone is trying to say and are offended on the back of that.

I have not said these courses are rubbish or everyone who uses them are bad Sparks, bad people, idiots, morons etc etc

I'm trying to be honest and said I think there is a risk after 5 weeks someone (not everyone) thinks they can go operate on their own installing allsorts.

They can't. It needs to be regulated better.

 

[Pete999]

The reason people get irritated is because whenever this subject comes up, there are blanket statements made that imply we're not competent. It certainly gets right up my nose because of what I've seen and experienced since I started my business and I've lost count of how many times I've not waded into the debate, instead sitting back biting my tongue so to speak.

I'm not saying all short coursers are brilliant, because they aren't, but we're not all incompetent idiots either. Just as I'm not saying all apprenticed sparks are garbage, because they aren't, but they aren't all brilliant either.

As for the freedom and confidence it can give someone... if someone is stupid enough not to realise their own limitations, their route into this industry is not going to change a thing. That's if they go and do any form of training at all. They will still go out there and do bad work, but more often than not when bad work is posted it's not long before there is an implication that it's the efforts of a short courser.

Just the other day I witnessed some fine work from a large local firm that's been around for years and years... cracking job, isolating a lighting point that's no longer needed with PVC tape... nice one! Not the first time I've witnessed their amazing standards. And for some balance, I had to tighten all the factory connections and incomers on a new consumer unit installed back in June by someone I believe to be a short courser. Again, not the first time I've encountered his bad work either but a cracking example of how to flagrantly lie on a schedule of test results. Do they understand the dangers they are leaving behind? Clearly not, or it is simply they just don't care. I truly believe it's a combination of both and no amount of training will fix that kind of attitude.

Accept that there are good and bad sparks entering the industry through both routes and don't lump all the bad stuff out there on those of us who went the short course route and we'll all get along just fine.



Quite, which is why whenever I encounter a situation I'm not 100% comfortable with, I come and here and ask for advice. That's where the 'anti short courser' sentiment and comments can be a problem. Surely it's better to have people come here and ask questions knowing they won't get abuse than coming here seeing 'short courser bodger', 'boil in the bag sparky' etc. etc. and leave, thus missing out on an opportunity to learn from more experienced people?

I guess the TLDR; for this post is:- Don't tar us all with the same brush, we're not all incompetent and many of us actively want to learn and improve by soaking up knowledge from more experienced people. Those who don't will never come to forums and ask because in their little corner of the universe they already know it all and are capable of anything.

I certainly haven't tarred everyone with the same brush, in fact I went to great pains in my OP to say that NOT ALL short coursers are bad, and we had some excellent Electricians who participate on this Forum, who have taken the short course route I might have opened Pandora's box with my post, but please don't include me, saying I'm Implying all short course people are a waste of space, as I'm clearly NOT saying that.

My OP was solely started to help me get to the bottom of how the Part P thing and all these short courses came to fruition in the first place, I do however think the CP Schemes are milking the situation, as are the training establishments, promising things they can not really full fill.

You only have to listen to some of the dissatisfied horror stories emanating from this Forum, to see that all is not sweetness and light in the world of "train to be an Electrician".