Have the rules for ring mains changed over the years?

[pc1966]

I don't know why my opinion offends you but ive read all the arguments for ring finals and Europe proves them straw clutchy at best.

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

 

[davesparks]

I just think the rest of the world proves there's no need for them.

I agree there is no 'need' for them, in as far as agreeing that it is perfectly possible to have a functioning electrical installation without ring final circuits.

I don't agree with the idea that they should be banned, removed from the regulations or any such thing.

The ring final is a useful circuit which a skilled electrician or designer can use in an installation in combination with other circuits to achieve the best outcome.

If you personally don't want to install ring circuits for whatever reason then that's fine, but please let the rest of us get on with installing the types of circuit we deem best suited to a particular installation.

 

[rewireIT]

If I was to say "Driving on the left is stupid and pointless, Europe proves that" would you consider it a sound argument?

No because that is a stupid argument.

Europe not having rings despite their rules being made up by dozens of countries of expert bodies proves we don't need rings. End of story.

 

[littlespark]

Anyone else notice the OP hasn’t been back since #4?

There are so many ring v radial discussions on the forum…. Maybe they can be amalgamated?

My own thoughts… which were stated on one of the other threads, is that we, as professionals, chose the best solution for the design… whether that be ring or radial. We just have an extra choice.

The Uk was an isolated island when electricity in homes became commonplace. We went for rings as it was a copper saving measure at the time, and the current ways have evolved from that.

The rest of Europe is so close together that commonalities between neighbouring countries naturally occurred… then one day a lot of them decided to standardise amongst themselves….. and either they didn’t include the UK in discussions, or we refused.

It’s not “wrong” or “right”…. It’s just different.

A final word….. can we keep the discussions civil?
Just make like a refrigerator and chill….

 

[timhoward]

Bear in mind that the use of rcbos save at least 4 ways in a split load board.

Sure, what I actually had in mind was if there was only a 4 way rewireable Wylex there in the first place the space for a replacement can be limited (if of course the replacement occupies the same spot)

Even in a kitchen how often are you gonna have a blender a toaster a kettle a water distiller or whatever all running simultaneously? And for how long?

In a small house where the kitchen is the utility room, you might have a dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all on together for over an hour. Ironing the previous load while the next one is washing and drying. A cuppa, kippers on toast. It's not a given that a 20A circuit won't get a little warm!
I don't disagree that other designs work, and multiple radials is certainly possible, but it is a convenient and resilient circuit for variable loads.

Aside from their ability to 'just get on with' periods of heavy use, they are probably the circuit that it is easiest to prove is in an excellent condition and discover modifications via the extensive tests that are possible.

To clarify, I don't think anyone is saying that we can't possibly do without them. It's about whether there are benefits to choosing to use them.

 

[rewireIT]

Sure, what I actually had in mind was if there was only a 4 way rewireable Wylex there in the first place the space for a replacement can be limited (if of course the replacement occupies the same spot)


In a small house where the kitchen is the utility room, you might have a dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all on together for over an hour. Ironing the previous load while the next one is washing and drying. A cuppa, kippers on toast. It's not a given that a 20A circuit won't get a little warm!
I don't disagree that other designs work, and multiple radials is certainly possible, but it is a convenient and resilient circuit for variable loads.

Aside from their ability to 'just get on with' periods of heavy use, they are probably the circuit that it is easiest to prove is in an excellent condition and discover modifications via the extensive tests that are possible.

To clarify, I don't think anyone is saying that we can't possibly do without them. It's about whether there are benefits to choosing to use them.

I much prefer how they do it in France, their electrics are much nicer. Their CU's are nicer too, good old double storey jobby.

 

[davesparks]

No because that is a stupid argument.

Europe not having rings despite their rules being made up by dozens of countries of expert bodies proves we don't need rings. End of story.

And our rules were also made by experts, experts who created what is widely regarded as the best designed and safest general use plug and socket system.

The ring circuit was developed due to a particular set of circumstances in this country and if they had occurred in other countries they would likely have adopted the ring circuit too.

 

[rewireIT]

And our rules were also made by experts, experts who created what is widely regarded as the best designed and safest general use plug and socket system.

By those in Britain.

 

[timhoward]

I much prefer how they do it in France, their electrics are much nicer. Their CU's are nicer too, good old double storey jobby.

I do like French CU's. Let's agree on that!

 

[rewireIT]

I do like French CU's. Let's agree on that!

They're mint. Nice little plastic stop screws that turn for a snug fit, wago'd earth bars, double pole breakers, main switch at origin of supply, and miles more circuits to put in meaning more money.

What's not to love.

 

[littlespark]

I do like French CU's. Let's agree on that!

I like their toast….. and their onion soup.

 

[nicebutdim]

Their version of electrocution is to die for.

 

[davesparks]

By those in Britain.

Not just in Britain, as far as I know they are regarded that way in many places.

Are you aware of a better general use system?

 

[mainline]

Sure, what I actually had in mind was if there was only a 4 way rewireable Wylex there in the first place the space for a replacement can be limited (if of course the replacement occupies the same spot)

I wouldn't be adding more circuits to a re wireable Cu.

In a small house where the kitchen is the utility room, you might have a dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all on together for over an hour. Ironing the previous load while the next one is washing and drying. A cuppa, kippers on toast. It's not a given that a 20A circuit won't get a little warm!

Having all those appliances on one circuit is wrong anyway, whether it be a ring or radial.

I don't disagree that other designs work, and multiple radials is certainly possible

Possible ? Radials are the most common circuit in use and installed.

it is a convenient and resilient circuit for variable loads.

So is a radial

Aside from their ability to 'just get on with' periods of heavy use, they are probably the circuit that it is easiest to prove is in an excellent condition and discover modifications via the extensive tests that are possible.

Prove is a bit of a strong word ?
You can't prove any circuit is in excellent condition just using an MFT.

To clarify, I don't think anyone is saying that we can't possibly do without them. It's about whether there are benefits to choosing to use them.

There are benefits to using a Ring final, there are also benefits using a horse and cart compared to a van.

 

[davesparks]

I much prefer how they do it in France, their electrics are much nicer. Their CU's are nicer too, good old double storey jobby.

In what way are the electrics nicer?

And what makes their CUs so much better?