heating circuit relay

[a-z electrics]

OK, lets take one question at a time.

yes, sorry Ive had a bit of a delay due to transport problem..

there is one common terminal for the black neutrals on the supply side of the relay which also go to the elements but no neutrals on the outputs, and there is a live link to another terminal on the supply side which doesnt go anywhere external. And there is a live link to two other integral terminals on the load side but the only wires apart from the neutral going out from the box are the red ones going to each of the 2 elements.
Im not sure its a UK made contraption, possibly australian from what the client has said but there are no manuals, instructions etc. even the name plate on the side of the control panel has all worn away. Despite that, its not in bad nick..

 

[a-z electrics]

I had a look at what CEF had in stock - they were all the standard plugin module 8 or 11 pin to a base, nothing like the one installed. The only other relay Ive seen like it was on my sons motorbike..

 

[HandySparks]

Hmm. I think we're going to struggle here without a photo and a rough diagram showing what's connected to what. Also, resistance measurements between the various terminals.

If there's no separate control input to the 'relay', then any switching has to be derived from the voltages and currents in the cables you've already described feeding the heaters. So probably switching one load depending on whether the other load is drawing current. But it's just a guess.

 

[plugsandsparks]

The bases I get can clip onto DIN Rail, but its only a hand full of wires, all you need to work out is how many channels are being switched, where's the signal coming from to switch, is it 230v or something else , forget whats already there and start from 1st principles.

 

[davesparks]

ok, lets take these one by one..
a) if I knew which relay to use, I wouldnt be asking for help..
b) yes, particularly as I also have a diploma in engineering..
c) I do understand what Im doing.. its what I would like to do I need some help on.. otherwise I wouldnt be posting on the forum. Or is the forum only there to spout on about how good you are?
d) its a mobile 13A appliance plugged in to a domestic socket, not a commercial installation. unless you class anything plugged into a house socket is commercial?
.. and its no good giving guidance if you're confused, you need to know what you're doing! ha ha, sorry but i couldnt resist :confused5:

When you said it was a mobile dog grooming system it suggested that it is commercial rather than a domestic installation, you rarely see dog grooming facilities of this nature in a house.

Having a diploma in engineering doesn't necessarily say anything about your ability to accept the liability for this. Does that diploma also insure you against causing injury to the dogs through scalding if the water ends up overheated as a result of your actions?

I don't think anyone has spouted on about how good they are, but it would be a poor state of affairs of we just handed out advice based on poor information and no knowledge of the ops ability.

 

[Pete999]

1st thing to ascertain when buying your new relay (contraption) is it capable of switching the current 8 amps so you say

 

[a-z electrics]

Hmm. I think we're going to struggle here without a photo and a rough diagram showing what's connected to what. Also, resistance measurements between the various terminals.

If there's no separate control input to the 'relay', then any switching has to be derived from the voltages and currents in the cables you've already described feeding the heaters. So probably switching one load depending on whether the other load is drawing current. But it's just a guess.

The client did take a photo.. Im kicking myself for not doing so but ive have requested she send photo to me..
I'm just wondering now if something might have been attached to the top of the box and fallen off. It was in a bit of an accident, I didnt see anything but there were some spade auto-like terminal sockets there. As i say, have had no experience in relays before but its definitely where the problem is.

 

[a-z electrics]

1st thing to ascertain when buying your new relay (contraption) is it capable of switching the current 8 amps so you say

Yes quite.. I see in the tlc catalog and also similar at cef, the 8 and 11 pin modules that plug into a base. The tlc do a 230v 10A one, 2 pole and I was tempted to buy one but Id rather try and establish exactly what the existing one is/does before i do that.
As I said in another reply, Im beginning to wonder if anything was originally attached to the black box.. it has spade terminal sockets but not like the pins on the other relays Ive seen.

 

[a-z electrics]

When you said it was a mobile dog grooming system it suggested that it is commercial rather than a domestic installation, you rarely see dog grooming facilities of this nature in a house.

Having a diploma in engineering doesn't necessarily say anything about your ability to accept the liability for this. Does that diploma also insure you against causing injury to the dogs through scalding if the water ends up overheated as a result of your actions?

I don't think anyone has spouted on about how good they are, but it would be a poor state of affairs of we just handed out advice based on poor information and no knowledge of the ops ability.

I dont think i need to prove my credentials to you or anyone else before I can ask for advice but you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about domestic installers and have gone way off topic.
I would suggest if you cant, or wont, provide anything helpful or positive you keep quiet.. if you want to start a post on the wisdom of domestic installers etc you start a new thread on that topic. I shall be glad to contribute.. and i have reported your attitude by the way.

 

[GMES]

I dont think i need to prove my credentials to you or anyone else before I can ask for advice but you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about domestic installers and have gone way off topic.
I would suggest if you cant, or wont, provide anything helpful or positive you keep quiet.. if you want to start a post on the wisdom of domestic installers etc you start a new thread on that topic. I shall be glad to contribute.. and i have reported your attitude by the way.

And that attitude doesn't help a thread either so please calm it down and let's keep things civil or the thread will be closed.

 

[davesparks]

I dont think i need to prove my credentials to you or anyone else before I can ask for advice but you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about domestic installers and have gone way off topic.
I would suggest if you cant, or wont, provide anything helpful or positive you keep quiet.. if you want to start a post on the wisdom of domestic installers etc you start a new thread on that topic. I shall be glad to contribute.. and i have reported your attitude by the way.

And I would suggest that you provide the necessary information for us to assist you.
'A black box which you think is a relay with spade terminals of an unspecified size and a part may, or may not be missing' is not much to work from.
A photograph, part number or reverse engineered wiring diagram would be much more helpful.

Thanks for the report, I'm sure the mods must have been starting to get worried if they haven't seen a report about me for a while.

 

[GMES]

Yeah Dave we were starting to think you had lost your touchmg_smile:

 

[GMES]

And Just for the record the report as been looked at and discussed and can't see anything wrong with what Dave and other members have requested which is basically some information, as said before the forum isn't here to provide step by step guides.

 

[Martin Kerr]

]I am assuming It's probably a relay with no base ,spade terminals only,
can be replaced with a standard relay 8 pin or 11 pin With base
probably best way to understand the concept is like a two way switch ,common in one side , 2 switch wires out the other side
One contact will be normally closed and then when the coil of the relay is switched the ,relay will change state and make the other contact live ,just haven't figured out from your post, what the control strategy for switching the relay, to change between heating elements would be?

 

[a-z electrics]

And Just for the record the report as been looked at and discussed and can't see anything wrong with what Dave and other members have requested which is basically some information, as said before the forum isn't here to provide step by step guides.

Haven't got a problem with that.. It was the intimation that I didn't know what I was doing, just because I hadn't come across this device before. And that because a trailer is deemed to be commercial and outside then suddenly it much more dangerous. That's Micky mouse logic to me.. What's more complicated and dangerous, rewiring a multi floor, multi circuit domestic installation supplied with 100A, or a car trailer supplied from a 13A plug? I'm qualified to do the former but you're saying not the latter?