Ok, Before we kick off .........
you have probably followed your conscience and done what is needed Now what are you trying to say?
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Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation
- Thread starter ackbarthestar
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Ok, Before we kick off .........
you have probably followed your conscience and done what is needed Now what are you trying to say?
"Hello ackbarthestar",
I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?
Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.
What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -
`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?
Chris
I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?
Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.
What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -
`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?
Chris
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Chris,
No offense mean't
Don't British Gas trainees have to do the electrical modules as part of their gas and heating qualification?
Also, as I recall, C&G heating and ventilation/ Gas quals include sections on safe isolation, earthing and bonding, heating controls.
S
sambotc
I trained as a gas engineer through an apprenticeship 12 years ago when I left school. At that time the ACS had just replaced ACOPS and there was no requirement to cover the electrical side. I think the gas industry has become a bit of a mess to be fair. The recent increase in numbers and 12 week training courses has led to the knowledge of your average gas/heating engineer being far less than it was years ago. From reading this forum I get the feeling the situation is no better in the electrical trade. To top it off, I have recently passed my 17th edition through a fast track college! This college is linked to the company I work for so due to our line of work taking a different avenue (in the shape of solar P.V and renewables) the course was offered to me.
I had already passed the part P course and my knowledge of electrical was reasonable after spending many hours at home learning the fundamentals off my own back.
I got the distinct feeling of being rail roaded into passing the exam, and although I passed, I am on here most nights reading up to extend my knowledge, as I don't feel like the course for 17th was adequate.
The problem in my opinion is down to the colleges handing out certificates here, there and everywhere, the tradesmen have been diluted with numb nuts who hold the relevant tickets but lack some of the more basic skills such as common sense etc. So if they can't learn their own trade, what chance have they got of being competent in another trade at the same time?
Also you mention service engineers, this is another area where the gas qualifications have missed the mark. Hanging a boiler on the wall and running some pipes to it is a different ball game to opening the case and trying to find a fault, the later should be a separate trade with different requirements such as basic electrical skills. as you all know, new condensing boilers require a lot of electrical components to operate, but if you carry out an ACS exam on boilers, you will not get asked a single question about the electrical operation of the boiler, where's the sense in that?
I had already passed the part P course and my knowledge of electrical was reasonable after spending many hours at home learning the fundamentals off my own back.
I got the distinct feeling of being rail roaded into passing the exam, and although I passed, I am on here most nights reading up to extend my knowledge, as I don't feel like the course for 17th was adequate.
The problem in my opinion is down to the colleges handing out certificates here, there and everywhere, the tradesmen have been diluted with numb nuts who hold the relevant tickets but lack some of the more basic skills such as common sense etc. So if they can't learn their own trade, what chance have they got of being competent in another trade at the same time?
Also you mention service engineers, this is another area where the gas qualifications have missed the mark. Hanging a boiler on the wall and running some pipes to it is a different ball game to opening the case and trying to find a fault, the later should be a separate trade with different requirements such as basic electrical skills. as you all know, new condensing boilers require a lot of electrical components to operate, but if you carry out an ACS exam on boilers, you will not get asked a single question about the electrical operation of the boiler, where's the sense in that?
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"Hello ackbarthestar",
Thanks for your Reply.
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently spoke to a British Gas Engineer who was Fitting a Meter for My Neighbour - He was a Young Man of about 24 - His next Job was an Electrical one - After that a Boiler Breakdown - another Meter install and then another Electrical Job - I wish that I had asked what kind of `Electrical Jobs` He was going to be doing but I did not.
His example of being Trained and Qualified for both Gas and Electrical works MAY be the `Way of the Future` - But I cannot imagine that the Electrical Profession would necessarily Welcome that ??
I mentioned previously that Electrical Training within other Trades Apprenticeships would be a GOOD Thing - and what You suggested SHOULD be the case when Gas Fitters / Engineers and Plumbing and Heating Engineers are doing their Apprenticeships - as I feel sure that the Apprenticeships could be structured to include Electrical Training - as they last for a period of Years this could definitely include at least Basic Electrical Safety / Isolation and Installation / Earthing etc.
Your example of Heating and Ventilation City & Guilds probably does include Electrical Training as that particular Trade - which is NOT the same as `Wet Heating` - Does include working with Air Handling Units - Large Electrical Fans - Electrical Controls on the Heating Coil Units which are connected to a Usually Industrial / Commercial Heating System.
Because of these points - and other reasons - I would expect that particular City & Guilds to include quite a lot of Electrical Training.
I do hope that what You suggested IS put in place - with EVERY Trade that deals with any Electrical Process / Appliance with Electrical Controls etc. having Electrical Training within the Apprenticeship Training.
I would advocate this in ALL Training for Work that involves coming into contact with Electrical Systems / Appliances - BUT with Shorter Course Training it would obviously be harder to Incorporate this [ Substantial ?] amount of Time into the Courses - without Increasing the Costs Substantially.
ALSO - I wonder IF all of Your `Colleagues` / Members on here would necessarily Agree with this approach ?? - It could be said that this would reflect in a Detrimental Way on the Electrical Profession - ?? - I.E. `Watering Down` the Importance of Professional Electricians - I would be interested in other Members Opinions about that point.
Regards,
Chris
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"Hello sambotc",
I agree with all of Your Points - The 12 Week Courses to `Make` a Gas Installer are nothing short of an Insult to Gas Engineers / Installers who have `Correctly Qualified` and have YEARS of experience !
When taking My Gas ACS Re-Assessments on a 5 Yearly Basis I have been told by the College Tutors / Assessment Invigilators about People who have come for the Short Course Training & Assessment who did not even know how to use a Manometer correctly !
These are People who have HAD TO provide a `Portfolio of Gas Work Experience` - Supervised and Signed by a Registered GasSafe Engineer at the least - in order to even be allowed to take these Gas Training and Assessment Modules !
The Portfolio as You know has to cover ALL of the Aspects that they want to take Further Training and Assessment for - and should `Show` their Experience in these Aspects.
NOT being able to use a Manometer correctly SHOULD in My Opinion show that their Portfolio is Fraudulent ! - And Immediately Disbar them from taking the Training and Assessments at the College ! - BUT this is NOT what happened - When I Queried why this was I was told - `We CANNOT state that the Portfolio is obviously Fraudulent` - `So We CANNOT disbar them from taking the Course and Assessments`.
Your comment about Boiler / Gas Appliance Service and Repair being a completely different Task to Installation - with the DEFINITE requirement for having had Electrical Training and Fault Finding Training could not be more correct - I agree entirely - and especially as You stated with Condensing Boilers [and Combi`s] - It would be almost Impossible to Identify Faults without carrying out Electrical Testing of the Circuits and Components - NOT something that should EVER be even attempted without the relevant Training.
Regards,
Chris
I agree with all of Your Points - The 12 Week Courses to `Make` a Gas Installer are nothing short of an Insult to Gas Engineers / Installers who have `Correctly Qualified` and have YEARS of experience !
When taking My Gas ACS Re-Assessments on a 5 Yearly Basis I have been told by the College Tutors / Assessment Invigilators about People who have come for the Short Course Training & Assessment who did not even know how to use a Manometer correctly !
These are People who have HAD TO provide a `Portfolio of Gas Work Experience` - Supervised and Signed by a Registered GasSafe Engineer at the least - in order to even be allowed to take these Gas Training and Assessment Modules !
The Portfolio as You know has to cover ALL of the Aspects that they want to take Further Training and Assessment for - and should `Show` their Experience in these Aspects.
NOT being able to use a Manometer correctly SHOULD in My Opinion show that their Portfolio is Fraudulent ! - And Immediately Disbar them from taking the Training and Assessments at the College ! - BUT this is NOT what happened - When I Queried why this was I was told - `We CANNOT state that the Portfolio is obviously Fraudulent` - `So We CANNOT disbar them from taking the Course and Assessments`.
Your comment about Boiler / Gas Appliance Service and Repair being a completely different Task to Installation - with the DEFINITE requirement for having had Electrical Training and Fault Finding Training could not be more correct - I agree entirely - and especially as You stated with Condensing Boilers [and Combi`s] - It would be almost Impossible to Identify Faults without carrying out Electrical Testing of the Circuits and Components - NOT something that should EVER be even attempted without the relevant Training.
Regards,
Chris
Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.
"Hello colshaws",
What You described is something that I have often seen or heard about - regarding the `Misdiagnosis` of a Fault on a Boiler.
The Problem seems to be that unless they have been specifically Trained on the Particular Boiler - Mistaking the possible CAUSES of a Fault seems to be Easy to do.
Although We might think that it SHOULD be Easy to Isolate a Fault by Electrical Testing of the Components and Wiring Circuits - A Knowledge of the `Chain of Operation` within the Boiler - the Operation of which part causes another to Operate - is obviously required - a lack of knowledge of this is what often causes a Customer to have to Pay for Unnecessary Parts !
Fault Diagnosis / `Chain of Operation` CAN be Complicated to REMEMBER - Although the Boiler Installation and Servicing Instructions SHOULD Always be left with the Appliance Owner / Householder - This is OFTEN an item that cannot be found to refer to.
In the case of a British Gas Engineer this should NOT present a Problem - As I believe that they carry Notebook Type Computers and can Access ANY Installation / Servicing Instructions [?]
Also there are obviously the GOOD Engineer and the `Not so Good`.
Regards,
Chris
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S
sbrown2
Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.
"Hello sbrown2",
You are correct in what You wrote - Clients will DEFINITELY use Companies who offer Multi Trades and it will obviously be VERY Tempting for People to want to `Train Up` to be Legal / Registered in these Multi Disciplines.
BUT - Although I have a VERY High Opinion of My Own Expertise in Heating - Plumbing and Gas where I have Qualifications in all of these - I have `Learned` My Trades from an Apprentice Plumber [Including Gas Safety - Installation etc.] - Following on with Qualifications in Heating - ONC & HNC [Including some Gas Modules] and ALL of the Domestic Gas ACOPS and now the Gas ACS - These PLUS over 40 Years of experience in these Trades - NOT Trained in Multi Disciplines in perhaps 6 Months to a Year [?].
That is the Difference between a Professional Tradesman [or Woman] who has Years of experience in more than one Trade and someone who has `Learned` more than one Trade in less than a Year - Impossible in My Opinion ! - Or All of Us who have been through our Apprenticeships have wasted our Time ! - Which I do NOT Think.
I realise that My Trades are `Related Disciplines` which obviously `Go Together` and are often Taught Together - Not quite the same as perhaps Gas and Electrics or Plumbing and Electrics - regarding learning the Installation Requirements / Safety Regulations etc. of Different Trades.
What does the future hold with all of these Multi Discipline Operatives going to be launched into the Workplace ??
Regards,
Chris
S
sbrown2
I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.
"Hello sbrown2",
Again I agree with You - From a Customers point of view it would be great to employ someone who can Legally carry out for example Plumbing - Gas and Electrical Works.
A person who is Registered with the necessary Competent Persons Schemes to enable the Notification / Certification of their Works in all of those Trades is obviously going to be in demand - as obviously the requirement for Certificates of Works carried out have become more widely known recently.
Even though the Home Information Packs have been scrapped - Certification of Building Works plus Gas - Electrical - Plumbing and Heating ARE becoming Well Known as being required regarding House Purchases.
I am always thinking of what Time Period would be required to Train someone for example in a Plumbing Apprenticeship - where Gas and Heating Systems are now included AND - Add the requirements of Full Electrical Training - All that is included in an Electrical Apprenticeship ??
After all I cannot imagine that there are Large Sections of what is learned during an Electrical Apprenticeship that could be correctly Discarded as `Not Necessary` - I would be sure that ALL that is Taught is Necessary.
Would there be People prepared to enter into perhaps a 6 Year [?] Apprenticeship - What would be available to Older People wanting to take this route - Only the `Fast Track` Method where it is Impossible to `Become` an Electrician / Gas Installer / Plumber with the Necessary Knowledge in these Trades in a Short Time !
What would the Customer be getting when using the Services of a Multi `Trades` Person from that route of Training ??
Regards,
Chris
S
sbrown2
I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).
Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.
Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.
S
sambotc
I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?
Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?
Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?
Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?
Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?
S
sbrown2
I will say I am/was rubbish in properties but I work with builder who's reputaton is in this trade. He may have less qualifications but he knows his stuff and together we can work through all of the competencies. In the domestics he wins, I'd like to think in the commercial and industrial I'd have a chance!!!!
Hi everyone,
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