Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation

[chris murphy]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

"Hello sambotc",

What You wrote about Floorboards being smashed to pieces after a Plumber or Electrician [or Heating Engineer] is one of My `Pet Hates` - When I take up Floorboards I am sure that a Carpenter could not make a better job of them - including when I take up Tongue & Groove Floorboards - I know how to do it correctly and I have the correct Tools.

What particularly irritates Me about damaged Floorboards taken up by a Plumber - Heating Engineer - Electrician is that when We have been in these Trades for a while We will have taken up so many Floorboards that We should be EXPERTS at it !

People who I have carried out Work for remember Me for the `High Standard` of My Workmanship but fairly recently the main source of My Work came to an end - so I may be Competing for Contracts with both Good Professional Tradesmen AND People who have much less Training / Knowledge / Skill / Lower Ethics / and a much Lower Standard of Work.

I used to receive probably 80% of My Work from one Building Contractor - quite a lot was in Refurbishment Contracts for Housing Associations / Estate Management Companies but some was in High Quality Houses and Appartments Refurbishment.

I installed My Heating Systems and Plumbing to an equally `High Standard` in ANY of these types of properties - as My method of working does NOT change to suit Jobs of so called `Lesser Worth` - I mean by this that I have only ONE Standard of My Work - A `High Standard` - Lowering My quality of Work when doing a Housing Association Flat for example does not even enter My mind.

I pay as much attention to the taking up of Floorboards - Drilling of Holes - Neat Clipping of Pipes - Pipe Insulation etc. as I do to actually Installing the Heating Appliances - Radiators - Pipework - Tanks - Cylinders - Sanitary Ware - Soil and Waste etc.

I know that this is NOT the attitude of a LOT of `Tradesmen` and with Fast Track Courses and Competent Persons Scheme Registration combined I can see the `Throw it In` attitude persisting and probably Increasing !


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

"Hello sbrown2",

When I referred to the Length of Training for a `Combined Apprenticeship` of for example Plumbing [including Gas and some Heating] and Electrics as perhaps being 6 Years I was Guessing that this would be the average Time Period that would be required for the `Average` Apprentice to be able to Learn what would be required [?] - In the Process / Timescale of an Apprenticeship.

I know what You mean by the `Ability to demonstrate Competence` - and I know that I could have condensed My Plumbing Apprenticeship into about 6 - 9 Months of Full Time College / Site Work experience IF that had been available at that Time.

That was not available - and it is still NOT an Option as far as I know - in any Trade [?]

Obviously if you look at the Cost of Courses that only last perhaps a Week and then calculate what 6 - 9 Months of Training such as that would cost it would be Prohibitive for most People - Even if you Halved those figures - still `Too Expensive` for most - Hence what I described has NO Demand.

BUT - what I describe is NOT the same as the current `Fast Track` Courses that are advertised - in terms of what would be Learned - although some will enable a Person to Register with a Competent Persons Scheme and then Compete with Tradesmen who have City & Guilds etc. and Years of Experience / further Training and Assessments.


Chris

 

[Chr!s]

Any Gas/plumber that have gone through the NVQ level 3 Gas or Plumbing will have been taught the electrical side(installation/Fault Finding, unfortunately like the Electrical NVQ level 3 is very easy to pass without having a full understanding.

Also like Electrics, Gas registration was easy to gain, the old ACOP's and the the ACS allowed anyone to gain registration pretty much. So a little like the 17th, the core gas safety CCN1 was easy to acquire with little knowledge.

Fortunately the gas industry has tightened level of entry, though as i said earlier the NVQ3 is no guarantee to ensuring a competent Gas/Plumbing engineer, like the Electrical NVQ3 they are pretty easy to pass and both are limited to the scope they cover. Though at least we wont be having bus drivers just being able to do a short course and becoming a Gas or Electrical Installer without having to do a course requires a higher level of understanding.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Chris",

The problem with ACOPS and ACS as I personally see it is that `Open Book` reference was / is allowed in the Assessments.

I feel that this should NOT be allowed - That would make the Gas ACS FAR from easy to pass - the Amount of knowledge required for CCN1 is EXTENSIVE - IF the Reference Books were NOT allowed during the Assessments.

I do realise that there would have to be some Reference Tables - as there are Calculations which rely on these Tables for Figures - But provide ONLY those Tables.

I agree with Your points about ACOPS & ACS being Easy to obtain - I feel that I could Pass ANY Exam / Assessment - On ANY Subject - IF I could have ALL of the necessary Reference Books to FIND the Answers during the Exam / Assessment !

As You stated the Entry Criteria for taking Gas ACS Courses and Assessments has been `tightened up` - But unfortunately this is still being Circumvented by the Unscrupulous People amongst Us - People now supposedly have to PROVE that they have either previously Worked with Gas or that they are currently in Training on Gas.

To do the latter they have to produce a Portfolio of Works carried out under the Supervision of - at least a GasSafe Registered Gas Installer - NOT necessarily a Company - I have seen Personally People attending the Training Courses at the College where I do My Re-Assessments who I was told by the Course Tutors `Did not have a Clue` about ANYTHING that was showing in their Portfolio - It was Pure Fraud !

WHY a GasSafe Registered Person would enter into putting their Name / Registration Number onto a Fraudulent `Portfolio` is anyone`s guess - I feel that there should be Repercussions on the GasSafe Registered People who do this.

I felt that the College should have refused to allow these People to continue with the Courses & Assessments when it is found out that they `Have no Idea` about Anything relating to Gas Work / Safety - BUT - this was NOT the approach of the College - `We have to accept that the Portfolio is Genuine` - `And allow them onto the Courses` was the comment that I got from the Tutors.


Chris

 

[fetamy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

 

[chris murphy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

"Hello fetamy",


I hope that You know that ONLY a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer can LEGALLY Work on a Gas Boiler - Installation - Maintenance OR Repairs.

Legal Competence can ONLY be Verified by a Person having PASSED the Current Gas ACS Assessments / Exams - AND by being Registered with ONLY Gas Safe.

NO-ONE Else could EVER be `Approved` as LEGAL to Work on Boilers or other Gas Appliances - As they would be `Exposed` in MINUTES of Technical Questioning about Gas / Gas Appliances as NOT having the `Necessary Knowledge` to be deemed `Competent` to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances.


Please do NOT allow anyone other than a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer work on any of your Gas Appliances - And Please do NOT recommend that anyone You know allows their Gas Appliances to be Worked on by `Non Registered Persons`.


Chris - Registered Gas Engineer

 

[Specialist]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

 

[chris murphy]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

"Hello Specialist",


Thanks for your positive comments.

All too often People who are not Gas Engineers / Gas Installers / Heating Engineers decry the Legalities of the Requirement that ONLY Gas Safe Registered Engineers / Installers Work on Gas Appliances - these People TRY to state that it is NOT a Legal Requirement to be Gas Safe Registered - JUST to be `Competent` to Work on Gas / Gas Appliances.

What they don`t seem to realise is that a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer could Expose the Non Registered Person as NOT having the necessary Technical Knowledge in Minutes - just by Asking a Few Technical Questions.

This is a simple example - imagine how easily the Non Registered Person would be Exposed as NOT being `Competent` during a Court Case - By being asked Questions formulated by a Gas Safe Inspector / Technical Expert - Questions that ONLY someone who had been Trained and Assessed on the subjects could possibly Answer.

In those circumstances the Non Registered Person would be Humiliated by their Lack of Technical Knowledge !


That shows how ridiculous it is for anyone to suggest that a Non Registered Person who `Knows a bit about Gas` could Legally Work on Gas / Gas Appliances - because they `Could be Competent` !


Obviously this might not apply to a Person who had been Gas Safe Registered but had allowed their Gas Safe Registration to Lapse - depending on how recently that had happened - I mention this only because someone might state that a previously Gas Safe Registered Person should be able to prove Competence - although they would still be `Working Illegally`.

Even Engineers / Installers who are Gas Safe Registered by a Company that they work for are NOT Legally Allowed to carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances on their OWN Behalf - Unless they are separately Registered with Gas Safe - This is `Not Allowed` by some Companies - For example British Gas - British Gas Engineers who carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances as `Private Work` are Working Illegally.

Not only is that Illegal - But it is against the Terms of their Contract with British Gas.


The `Working Illegally` situation applies to ALL `Private Work` carried out by ALL Gas Engineers / Installers who are ONLY Gas Safe Registered via the Company that they work for.


I am mentioning this ONLY to provide the `Legal Position` of that situation.



Thanks Again for your reply.


Chris

 

[Specialist]

Your welcome Chris, I was the "Victim" shall we say of what appears to have been an unregistered Gas installer (Read also totally incompetent). A house that I was living in had a new meter installed, when the Meter installer did a pressure test on the system he found that there was a leak on the system so turned off the supply & told me to call a Gas fitter. Luckily a good friend of mine was is fully qualified & as it was at the time Corgi registered installer, he came straight over & we got down to looking for the Fault, 1st we found was on the heating boiler & was actually just a small leak because a joint had'nt been sealed properly. This though was nothing to the real fault, we found that the gas pipe for the Gas cooker had been run in the cavity wall & there were 2 joints that had actually never been soldered (Obviously no tests were done) & the cavity was filling with Gas, as they were ex Local authority & the cavity extended from 1 end of the row to the other the whole lot could have gone up. With all of us in it.

 

[johnboy6083]

close call there mate.

 

[Specialist]

Yes mate it was, unfortunately we never found out what moron did it.
But there's plenty of them about messing with Gas work, was on a site a few years ago where they had a "Gas fitter" doing a job. I was working in the kitchen when he was repairing a leaky compression joint, instead of useing thread seal he just ripped up a plastic carrier & wrapped a bit around the joint.
I don't like reporting people but I had to in this case, he was bloody lethal.

 

[chris murphy]

Your welcome Chris, I was the "Victim" shall we say of what appears to have been an unregistered Gas installer (Read also totally incompetent). A house that I was living in had a new meter installed, when the Meter installer did a pressure test on the system he found that there was a leak on the system so turned off the supply & told me to call a Gas fitter. Luckily a good friend of mine was is fully qualified & as it was at the time Corgi registered installer, he came straight over & we got down to looking for the Fault, 1st we found was on the heating boiler & was actually just a small leak because a joint had'nt been sealed properly. This though was nothing to the real fault, we found that the gas pipe for the Gas cooker had been run in the cavity wall & there were 2 joints that had actually never been soldered (Obviously no tests were done) & the cavity was filling with Gas, as they were ex Local authority & the cavity extended from 1 end of the row to the other the whole lot could have gone up. With all of us in it.

"Hello Again Specialist",


The kind of `Errors` that you wrote about are quite regularly found by either a VERY Dangerous situation occurring or by Qualified / Registered Gas Engineers / Installers when they go to a Home to carry out other Gas Work.

The FIRST thing that any Qualified Gas Engineer / Installer should do when going into any Building where they are going to do ANY `Gas Work` - which includes even a Visual Inspection of an Appliance is to carry out Tests from the Gas Meter to establish [or otherwise] that the Gas Meter and Pipework to the Appliances is NOT Leaking.

Then depending on what they are Contracted to do - The Appliances should be Checked for correct Installation and Safety of Operation.


At that point they can Notify the Client IF there is a Leak - Before they carry out ANY Work or Inspections / Servicing etc.

Otherwise they would carry out some Work or Inspections / Servicing and then `Find` that something is Leaking when they did their Gas Meter & Pipework Testing [If not done at the start] - Not knowing without Checking that it was NOT something that they had been Inspecting / Servicing.
And even then a Leak might have been caused for example by someone previously Overtightening a connection Nut - sometimes NOT easy to rectify correctly if on an Appliance !

Checking this and then having to Notify the Client that there is a Leak `On Existing Gas Pipework` AFTER they have done Work / Inspections / Servicing is NOT something that is to be recommended !


Regarding your example of the Pipework Joints that were not even Soldered - This is the reason that a Visual Inspection of ALL Joints on Gas Pipework at the point of Installation is VITAL - As the Flux that is used in the Soldering process can sometimes actually cause the Joint to `Hold` on a Test - while the Flux is in its `Paste` like form it can prevent Air / Gas from escaping as the Test Pressure is so Low - WHEN the Flux dries out GAS Leaks out !


Thanks for giving those examples of Dangerous Situations.


Chris

 

[Specialist]

No problem mate, thanks for the info.

 

[hermetic]

The mistake that you are all making in my estimation is to assume that everyone who passes some or other competency scheme is a "good engineer" and everyone who doesn't is a cowboy. I think that the schemes we have today are merely cowboy creation schemes where an unemployed window cleaner can become a certified gas fitter or electrician in 6 months or less provided they can afford it. I did an electrical apprenticeship in the late 60's early 70's plus 3 years of day release to qualify for Nat Dip in electrical engineering. I fix all electrical problems on my own gas boiler. If I have a gas problem, I call my gas safe man! or rather I did because he has now retired, so I have to find another one. You can be sure I will not be using any of the four gas safe registered cowboys who I got to "service" my boiler annually before I found him. I have the all important manual for my boiler, and I know how it should be annually serviced, with the first four guys it certainly wasn't. Being a cowboy is a state of mind which reveals a person who takes the shortest route to the maximum profit, and no amount of competency schemes will root him out. The vast majority of young supposedly qualified "tradesmen" I work with today are laughably incompetent to a man when it comes to anything other than a straightforward installation, fault finding? Forget it!! it bodes very badly for the future. The smart move seems to be to get into the training and registration "industry" QUICK!

 

[Specialist]

If you maybe read the thread again you'll see that that's not what we're saying at all. In fact what I do know is that the 2 morons I mentioned were both as it was then Corgi registered. We're all well aware that there are Cowboys out there & a lot of them. The point still stands that servicing a Gas system / Appliance should'nt be undertaken by a DIY'er no matter how competent they think they are to do a repair & as Chris pointed out: Should there be a problem & a Court case then the DIY'er would'nt have a leg to stand on.